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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8796458" data-attributes="member: 93670">Without seeing an example of such a subclass where it might be thematically appropriate & within the power budget  it's difficult to say if it's good or desirable in that case. Bards in playtest packet2 are not unable to cast those spells though.  At both 11 & 15 bards can choose a spell list they can prepare any two spells from & change the spells they prepare from it whenever they prepare spells. Let's not pretend not to notice the elephant that goes wit not using that class resource for these spells.  Freeing those two spells up is more about being able to cast tiny hut & fireball (or whatever).  It doesn't look like magical secrets was a thing until 5e so if we are talking about "iconic" bard stuff it's hard to see why the bard shouldn't be using that for old missing spells instead of picking up tiny hut & fireball or whatever on top of the new spells they can now cast.Looking back you<a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/whats-your-opinion-on-the-standardization-of-spellcasters.692180/post-8795731" target="_blank"> mentioned</a> heroism(both <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroism.htm" target="_blank">3.x</a> & <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/heroism" target="_blank">5e</a> bard/wiz both cast it at character level 5)/bane(not seeing in 2ephb) but I've always seen it as a cleric spell, I'm not sure I'd call either of those "iconic bard spells" just because they were capable of casting them.  Heroism was single target so  IME any situation where it would be important (ie fear aura type stuff) probably fell to the wizard's stack of scribed scrolls able to cover the party rather than the bard's limited spell slotsThe only other spell I remember seeing named by people as  important to bards was heroes feast & that was not a spell bards could cast until 16th w/1.32mil exp*(2e)  to the wizard's 12(750k exp*) in 2e & 11wiz/bard17 in 3.x.  At least in 2014 5e for both wizard & bard . I just don't consider a spell wizards had been casting for so long before bards were capable of casting it to be an "iconic bard spell" that would be part of the class's "essence".  Bard hasn't lost any of those spells though, they just compete with fireball &  tiny hut or whatever the new big ones are in a new very much not iconic bard feature(magical secrets).Nobody is complaining about the new spells on the list that bards are able to cast even though they never  could before, just lot  about couple mostly unnamed ones that are missing if the bard doesn't use their new magical secrets options for them.I quite like the flex-vancian prep on the bard & wouldn't want to see it go back to spells known.  If Heroism & Bane are the only spells we are talking about I'd toss them in as an option for bardic inspiration dice spending.*2e levels  & experience were funny & hard to compare for lots of reasons, there was some discussion & charts on that a few posts back</blockquote>

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