D&D General What's your view on a pirate-driven campaign?

[Celebrim]

And, of course, this brings up another point. Age of Piracy era is pretty anachronistic for D&D. We're talking several centuries ahead of what D&D is typically pegged at.

D&D is conceptually pegged at Medieval.

In practice, Gygaxian D&D is Victorian minus gunpowder. Age of Piracy is actually anachronistic the other way in many cases.

It's not really obvious because the medieval era is so far away historically that unless one actually reads primary sources from that era one probably has only vague notions about it. What ones notions are probably set by is actually literature about the medieval era or movies based on that literature. And that's something like "Ivanhoe" which was published in 1820, and where Gygax gets so many of his own anachronisms from (chainmail, longsword, etc.) I knew some of this already - the typical D&D city is London from Oliver Twist - but it really got hammered home emotionally for me when I read an article about costuming in Disney Princess movies, and for the most part they are visually set in the 19th century.

If you have a Crow's Nest on your ships, you are set AFTER the real Golden Age of Piracy. That wasn't invented until the late 18th century.

And modern D&D (say 5e) is actually later than that in many cases, conceptually the 1880s sans some gunpowder and a bit of anachronistic costuming at times. Only Eberron actually leaned into that, but D&D has become this self-referential thing that is defining its own genre and its very not based on the Middle Ages in any way.

If you keep to Medieval (say 1400 (ish) (yes, yes, I KNOW that's not right, but, it's a decent rough number, sit down in the back) level technology, then the ships are a LOT smaller and easier to work with in the game. Crews of 5-10 aren't unreasonable at all for most of these ships, which means you can have the PC's plus a nice, manageable number of NPC's on the ship. I would recommend keeping things lower technology, especially since you're not likely to be using cannons and gunpowder anyway.

Except that real medieval pirates aren't using sailing vessels. They are using the same vessels that dominated piracy for the prior 2000 years - rowed galleys. Whether its Viking longships with their high freeboard and clinker built construction for the open Atlantic or Mediterranean galleys that would have been recognizable to ancient Greeks, pirates in this era are taking advantage of the galley's "sprint speed" to ambush and chase down the clumsy cogs and ships of this era, often relying on the fact they can go against the wind and the prey ship will be blown inexorably into their path. In other words, a pirate campaign that is really medieval doesn't look anything like what people picture when they think pirates. And, on top of that, the crews aren't smaller, they are larger. Indeed, even into the age of criminal pirates like Blackbeard, this tactic of cramming hundreds of cuthroats onto a rowed ship and sprinting to ambush sailing vessels was still in use. It was actually more in use by pirates than cannon fire. But it won't feel like "pirates' to someone raised on "Pirates of the Caribbean" or even (it is hoped) "The Sea Hawk" and "Captain Blood".

 

[Micah Sweet]

D&D is conceptually pegged at Medieval.

In practice, Gygaxian D&D is Victorian minus gunpowder. Age of Piracy is actually anachronistic the other way in many cases.

It's not really obvious because the medieval era is so far away historically that unless one actually reads primary sources from that era one probably has only vague notions about it. What ones notions are probably set by is actually literature about the medieval era or movies based on that literature. And that's something like "Ivanhoe" which was published in 1820, and where Gygax gets so many of his own anachronisms from (chainmail, longsword, etc.) I knew some of this already - the typical D&D city is London from Oliver Twist - but it really got hammered home emotionally for me when I read an article about costuming in Disney Princess movies, and for the most part they are visually set in the 19th century.

If you have a Crow's Nest on your ships, you are set AFTER the real Golden Age of Piracy. That wasn't invented until the late 18th century.

And modern D&D (say 5e) is actually later than that in many cases, conceptually the 1880s sans some gunpowder and a bit of anachronistic costuming at times. Only Eberron actually leaned into that, but D&D has become this self-referential thing that is defining its own genre and its very not based on the Middle Ages in any way.



Except that real medieval pirates aren't using sailing vessels. They are using the same vessels that dominated piracy for the prior 2000 years - rowed galleys. Whether its Viking longships with their high freeboard and clinker built construction for the open Atlantic or Mediterranean galleys that would have been recognizable to ancient Greeks, pirates in this era are taking advantage of the galley's "sprint speed" to ambush and chase down the clumsy cogs and ships of this era, often relying on the fact they can go against the wind and the prey ship will be blown inexorably into their path. In other words, a pirate campaign that is really medieval doesn't look anything like what people picture when they think pirates. And, on top of that, the crews aren't smaller, they are larger. Indeed, even into the age of criminal pirates like Blackbeard, this tactic of cramming hundreds of cuthroats onto a rowed ship and sprinting to ambush sailing vessels was still in use. It was actually more in use by pirates than cannon fire. But it won't feel like "pirates' to someone raised on "Pirates of the Caribbean" or even (it is hoped) "The Sea Hawk" and "Captain Blood".

This why I see little value in focusing a campaign on pirates unless you're using Age of Sail trappings. I want cannons darn it! It feels wrong to me without them.

 

[Celebrim]

This why I see little value in focusing a campaign on pirates unless you're using Age of Sail trappings. I want cannons darn it! It feels wrong to me without them.

The one I was in that worked used age of sail trappings, right down to the major military powers having "ships of the line". The GM didn't want to introduce gunpower - less because of the worry about cannons and firearms and more about the worry of PC's putting barrels of gunpowder in portable holes and then blowing everything up - and so we had ships loaded with ballista and "mangonels" of various sizes (interpreted as torsion powered ballista). Functionally these worked basically like cannons (but with maybe half the range). It was an unrealistic compromise of course, in that real age of sail warships would have bounced torsion engine fired missiles without damage, but it had enough color of realism to suspend disbelief. It's easy to imagine a 72 lb ball moving at 200 mph smashing through things, and possible to imagine that fired from a great torsion engine crewed by 16 sailors.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The one I was in that worked used age of sail trappings, right down to the major military powers having "ships of the line". The GM didn't want to introduce gunpower - less because of the worry about cannons and firearms and more about the worry of PC's putting barrels of gunpowder in portable holes and then blowing everything up - and so we had ships loaded with ballista and "mangonels" of various sizes (interpreted as torsion powered ballista). Functionally these worked basically like cannons (but with maybe half the range). It was an unrealistic compromise of course, in that real age of sail warships would have bounced torsion engine fired missiles without damage, but it had enough color of realism to suspend disbelief. It's easy to imagine a 72 lb ball moving at 200 mph smashing through things, and possible to imagine that fired from a great torsion engine crewed by 16 sailors.

Reminds me of Spelljammer, which mostly only had cannons if you used the Giff (I love the Giff!) But I'd still rather just have cannons, explosive extradimensional spaces be darned!

 

[Zardnaar]

This why I see little value in focusing a campaign on pirates unless you're using Age of Sail trappings. I want cannons darn it! It feels wrong to me without them.

That's true. Cannons have never worked well in D&D. Generally they cant sink a ship very fast and its kind of what PCs often want to do.

Another problem is realism. Once PCs hit certain levels pirates are generally low CR foes. Its kind of immersion breaking having crews that are CR2 or higher across the board. The boss pirate may be a half demon or whatever with suitable crews but yeah.

Finally the naval combat tends to be a mini fane. Some players build around that others don't. Its a d20 problem in general even in other genres eg star wars.

A DM kinda has to incorporate naval combat into the gane eve if its abstract. Best approach is usually opposed skill checks to get into range. Faster ship has advantage if the slow ships very slow they can have disadvantage.

Cannons can be subbed with magical equivalents. Eg acid firing Cannons or "prism flowers" that fire sunbeams. If PCs have that and typical oponent ship doesn't yeah see previous comment about immersion breaking. Also plundering merchants its not exactly good.

Spelljammer is easier as neogi, beholder and ilithids aren't very sympathetic. In 2E my players tricked out a man o war for speed and maneuvering. They rammed other ships essentially one shooting them and using ranged attacks on the survivors. Theres always a rule explot somewhere.

If you've played some video games eg Assassins Creed Black Flag/Odyssey, Port Royale series, Sid Meiers Pirates the ship combat is mostly a sub game and the computer handles the details.

Minimum the ship to ship combat. Make it boarding based. Happy pirates vs a evil empire or inhuman die works best imho.

Pathfinder has a lot of material im trying to locate the stuff I used. Theres also a 3E books I found useful. I still own it but good luck finding it.

 

[GrimCo]

Proto industrialization to do that. Henry Ford didnt invent the production line.

I dont think Venice did either iirc.

Oh, you would be wrong there. Venice Arsenal was largest and most advanced industrial complex in Europe in 14th century, with around 16000 workers. It is fairly well documented example of proto industrialization. Their annual output (new and major retrofit) was 10-20 galleys per year in 13th and 20-40 in 14th century and maintaining fleet of up to 300 galleys at any time. They deforested large parts of Croatian coast (Istria, islands Hvar,Brač,Korčula, hinterlands of Zadar and Šibenik) to get wood for Arsenal. Secret to mass production was standardization of parts.

It's fascinating stuff. Specially if you are interested in ships and history of naval architecture. We touched on it briefly in uni (i enrolled in first year of naval architecture, then switched to mechanical engineering in 2nd year, but one of courses in first year covered history of technology with focus on ship building).

 

[Zardnaar]

Oh, you would be wrong there. Venice Arsenal was largest and most advanced industrial complex in Europe in 14th century, with around 16000 workers. It is fairly well documented example of proto industrialization. Their annual output (new and major retrofit) was 10-20 galleys per year in 13th and 20-40 in 14th century and maintaining fleet of up to 300 galleys at any time. They deforested large parts of Croatian coast (Istria, islands Hvar,Brač,Korčula, hinterlands of Zadar and Šibenik) to get wood for Arsenal. Secret to mass production was standardization of parts.

It's fascinating stuff. Specially if you are interested in ships and history of naval architecture. We touched on it briefly in uni (i enrolled in first year of naval architecture, then switched to mechanical engineering in 2nd year, but one of courses in first year covered history of technology with focus on ship building).

I'm aware of the arsenal.

Carthage was using prefabricated parts it seems. The Romans found a wreck and copied it and it had idea type instructions to match up parts. Carthage was the proto Venice kinda.

Ottomans could also spam galleys. Think they went for a quantity over quality approach. Doesn't matter if your ship falls apart in 2 years you're only using it for 1 or 1 battle.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's true. Cannons have never worked well in D&D. Generally they cant sink a ship very fast and its kind of what PCs often want to do.

Another problem is realism. Once PCs hit certain levels pirates are generally low CR foes. Its kind of immersion breaking having crews that are CR2 or higher across the board. The boss pirate may be a half demon or whatever with suitable crews but yeah.

Finally the naval combat tends to be a mini fane. Some players build around that others don't. Its a d20 problem in general even in other genres eg star wars.

A DM kinda has to incorporate naval combat into the gane eve if its abstract. Best approach is usually opposed skill checks to get into range. Faster ship has advantage if the slow ships very slow they can have disadvantage.

Cannons can be subbed with magical equivalents. Eg acid firing Cannons or "prism flowers" that fire sunbeams. If PCs have that and typical oponent ship doesn't yeah see previous comment about immersion breaking. Also plundering merchants its not exactly good.

Spelljammer is easier as neogi, beholder and ilithids aren't very sympathetic. In 2E my players tricked out a man o war for speed and maneuvering. They rammed other ships essentially one shooting them and using ranged attacks on the survivors. Theres always a rule explot somewhere.

If you've played some video games eg Assassins Creed Black Flag/Odyssey, Port Royale series, Sid Meiers Pirates the ship combat is mostly a sub game and the computer handles the details.

Minimum the ship to ship combat. Make it boarding based. Happy pirates vs a evil empire or inhuman die works best imho.

Pathfinder has a lot of material im trying to locate the stuff I used. Theres also a 3E books I found useful. I still own it but good luck finding it.

I'd probably just keep it to a relatively low level game, but those are good ideas!

 

[Zardnaar]

I'd probably just keep it to a relatively low level game, but those are good ideas!

I suspect I've done more ship based combat in d20 in 2E than most of not all here lol. 2E, 3E and Star Wars d20.

Higher level you kinda need to incorporate Spellhammer or similar elements. Sailing around the Abyss or whatever in a plane shifting ship also works.

Players wanting to fireball sails or vice versa is an issue along with ranged attacks. PCs lacking them miss out.

 

[Celebrim]

Reminds me of Spelljammer, which mostly only had cannons if you used the Giff (I love the Giff!) But I'd still rather just have cannons, explosive extradimensional spaces be darned!

Cannons definitely have their place and are just as medieval as full plate and rapiers, crows' nests, abundant currency, standing armies, and stable nation state monarchies and republics.

I've never seen one true medieval town in all of my time playing the game.

In my own campaign it's canonical that chemistry works nothing like the real world, and that there really are four elements - earth, fire, air, and water. This let's me get around any players metagame chemistry. It's canonical in the history of the world that goblins have invented and tried to deploy guns on multiple occasions, only to have it eventually spectacularly backfire because a single low level magic spell (or simply dropped bag) can trigger a chain reaction in every musketeer's powder case, killing the entire army. By canon, the most powerful explosive known to alchemical science has the brisance of black powder and the stability of raw warm nitroglycerin. Fireworks and explosives are known, but they generally have to be prepared and used the same day. Storing large quantities of explosives just isn't feasible in the homebrew world by design.

(I may have gotten the inspiration here from the Amber series, where the fact that explosives don't work in every universe is a major plot point.)

It's not the firearms that bother me. It's the player that wants to solve all problems by just blowing things up. I have bad enough problems with there is always some PC that wants to burn down the dungeon rather than explore it. The problem gets worse if they can haul gunpowder around. And it's not even really the balance issue to that (hint, it doesn't really work). It's the fact that it's just really unfun.

But cannons themselves are fun, and my only problem with muskets is that they make 1st and 2nd level really hard to survive and they imply the existence of say caplocks, breach loaders, rifled miniballs, elephant guns, punt guns, revolvers, lever action rifles and other merely mechanical things which would be easy to invent in the setting - dwarves would figure these things out in the life time of a single dwarf at most if they had a functional black powder. If muskets are allowed, very little stops you from M-16's and that creates massive anti-heroic balance issues.