When are you denied an AoO?

[Artoomis]

I agree completely. However.....

I should have thrown in this last bit that Hypersmurf just added - the fact that an AoO is a different animal than other actions. Caliban unofficially called it a "reaction."

While i agree that a stunned creature would not get an AoO, a strict reading of the rules (as Hyp. points out) does not preclude a stunned character from taking an AoO.

Actually, it's not quite that simple. When you take an AoO, you are executing an attack action. You can't take any actions. Ergo - no AoO.

AoO is not a "Standard Action," nor even a "Free Action,": but it is an "Attack Action."

Note that the word "action" is used more than one way in the PHB. This is unfortunate, but true.

 

[Artoomis]

While I absolutely agree, there is wiggle room for lawyering.

From the footnote for Grapple, Trip, and Disarm:

"These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity."

A melee attack is not, in itself, an action....-Hyp.

Isn't an "attack action" still listed in the PHB in 3.5. This goes under the category of when is an "action" not an "Action?"

So, what is an "action?" It depends. Now don't you just hate that answer?

An "action" might be one of the list of actions: Standard, Move, Free, Full.
Or it might be whenever you do something.
It depends.

The rules were simply not written precisely enough to assume that anytime you are not allowed to do an "action" it means only Standard, Move, Free or Full.

 

[Hypersmurf]

AoO is not a "Standard Action," nor even a "Free Action,": but it is an "Attack Action."

The Attack Action is a standard action. An AoO is not the Attack Action.

-Hyp.

 

[Bloodhawk]

As far as i can tell the only time you're denied an AoO is when you're flat-footed, paralyzed/held, unconscious or dead. What about when you're attacked by an invisible attacker? What if someone sneaks up on you?

I ask this because one of my players wants to know if he can sneak up on someone and attempt to disarm them w/o provoking an AoO. He doesn't have Improved Disarm (obviously).

I guess you could be denied an AoO if you have used them all ready in that round. As if the person that the player is sneaking up on does not have combat reflexes and only gets one AoO and he has already used it that round, then he would be safe.

 

[dcollins]

This rule didn't exist in 3E, but many people used it as a House Rule.

Of course, there was also some designer support for that interpretation. Monte Cook at one point said you shouldn't get AOOs in such a case (then he said "maybe this, maybe that"). Skip Williams also said you shouldn't get AOOs against people you're denied a Dex bonus against. But Ryan Dancey said the design team supposedly said, yes you should get Listen checks and AOOs.

All this on a copy of Eric Noah's old 3rd Ed. combat web page: http://www.dungeonbastard.net/3ecombat.htm

 

[Hypersmurf]

Of course, there was also some designer support for that interpretation.

But not Core rules support

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

The Attack Action is a standard action. An AoO is not the Attack Action.

-Hyp.

It;s not quite that simple. Here are some quotes from the PHB:

"Making an attack is a standard action."

"...you must make a full attack action to get your additional attacks..."
(Many other references to "full attack action" - these go to show that the word "action" is sometimes used in more than one way. It would be more proper to say "make a full attack to get..." as it is a "full round action." If the ONLY "actions" were Standard, Move, Full and Free, there there could be no such term as 'full attack action'"

"A creature with a gaze attack can actively attempt to use its gaze as an attack action..."

COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee...

SHOT ON THE RUN [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When using the attack action with a ranged weapon...

From the Monster Manual:
Attack
This line shows the single attack the creature makes with an attack action...A creature can use one of its secondary natural weapons when making an attack action...
Flight (Su): A rast can ... (either a move action or an attack action) each round.

There are more, of course.

What I am pointing out is that the word "action" is imprecise, as is the term "attack action." It may or may not mean a standard action, depending upon usage.

So, what does it [really mean when the book says "no actions" when stunned? Good question

I think they really meant you can't act, which is to say you may marginally defend yourself (note the penalties) but that's about it. Any other interpretation leaves one wondering about why the doid not address other penalties - for surely you could take do anything without some sort of penalty.

The answer, is, of course, that you can't do anything so it's not an issue, and that's why it's not in the rules.

But I am well aware of the legitimacy of the counter arguments. It's left up to DMs to make the right call.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"Making an attack is a standard action."

That's right. It's the first sentence of the description of the Attack action. If you're taking the Attack action, then you're using a standard action to make an attack.

But if you're taking the Charge action, for example, then making an attack isn't a standard action; it's part of a Full Round action.

"Making an attack is a standard action" only applies to the Attack action, not to any attack.

If the ONLY "actions" were Standard, Move, Full and Free, there there could be no such term as 'full attack action'"

Those are the only classifications of action. All actions are Standard, Move, Full, or Free. The Charge action is a Full Round action. The Withdraw action is a Full Round action. The Ready a Shield action is a Standard action. The Full Attack action is a Full Round action. The Sunder action is a Standard action.

An AoO is not "The Attack of Opportunity action". It is not a Standard, Move, Full Round, or Free action. It's not an "action" at all.

"A creature with a gaze attack can actively attempt to use its gaze as an attack action..."

Absolutely. If the creature takes the Attack action, a standard action, it can use its gaze, make a single melee attack, or make a single ranged attack.

COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee...

Right. You can use Combat Expertise when you're taking the Attack action (a standard action that allows a single attack) or the Full Attack action (a full round action that allows potentially multiple attacks).

You can't use Combat Expertise with the Charge action; it is neither the Attack action nor the Full Attack action. You can't use Combat Expertise on an AoO; it is neither the Attack action nor the Full Attack action (although if you took one of those actions during your turn and used Combat Expertise, it may still be in effect when you make your AoO).

From the Monster Manual:
Attack
This line shows the single attack the creature makes with an attack action...A creature can use one of its secondary natural weapons when making an attack action...

Absolutely. When the creature takes the Attack action (a standard action) it only makes one attack, which may be with one of its secondary weapons if it wishes. (This would also apply on an AoO or a Charge action, neither of which are the Attack action, since in these cases it's also only making a single attack, but not on a Full Attack action.)

What I am pointing out is that the word "action" is imprecise, as is the term "attack action." It may or may not mean a standard action, depending upon usage.

The Attack action is always a standard action.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

The Attack action is always a standard action.

-Hyp.

Except when it's not.

"Making an attack is a standard action" Note the LACK of the term "attack action."

AoO:
"...defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity..."

But wait, an attack is a standard action. Except when it's not. But it's still an attack, right? Even though it's free?

...An attack of opportunity is a single mêlée attack... (is that not cool - my spell checker gave me "mêlée" for melee)

There it is again. It is an attack.

I submit that making an attack is an action in the sense that you cannot do it if you cannot take any actions. I further submit that the word "action" in the "stunned" condition is used in the general sense, not to mean only Standard, Move, Free or Full-Round Actions.

I cannot "prove" this any more than you can "prove" that "attacks" are not actions when taken as part of an AoO.

I can ALMOST prove that an AoO is a "Free Action," though. The logic is slightly flawed, but here goes anyway:

Attack = Standard Action.
AoO uses "free attacks."
It must, therefore, use a Free Standard Action.
Since there is no such thing as a Free Standard Action (an oxymoron, that), it must be a Free Action, albeit one taken out of turn in response to an enemy's actions.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"Making an attack is a standard action" Note the LACK of the term "attack action."

You're quoting from the description of the Attack action!

Making an attack is a standard action... if you're reading about the Attack action.

If you make seven attacks as part of a Full Attack action, you're not making seven standard actions. The "making an attack is a standard action" isn't found in the Full Attack action description, only the Attack action description. Those seven attacks constitute one Full Round action - the Full Attack action.

But wait, an attack is a standard action. Except when it's not. But it's still an attack, right? Even though it's free?

It's a melee attack. Not an action. An attack is not a standard action. The Attack action is a standard action. The line "Making an attack is a standard action" is the description of the standard action, the Attack action. Not a general description of any attack roll.

There it is again. It is an attack.

Yup. And since Trip, Grapple, and Disarm substitute for "a melee attack, not an action", they can sub in on an AoO. See that again? "melee attack, not an action".

I can ALMOST prove that an AoO is a "Free Action," though. The logic is slightly flawed...

The major flaw being "Attack = Standard action". This is only applicable to the Attack action (I think I mentioned that one earlier ), not to an AoO, Full Attack action or Charge action...

-Hyp.