When DC 15 just doesn't cut it...

[Three_Haligonians]

So, I lead an Epic Level game, the characters are all hovering around level 30. I decide to create an antagonist (not an easy task sometimes..) and I get around to buying/deciding what kind of equipment they should have:

"My assassin would benefit from a poisonous back-up weapon - too bad the dagger of venom has a DC of only 14.."

"Pipes of Pain would be neat distraction for my evil bard (hey.. it can happen ) but again, DC 14.."

"These eyes of petrification would be great for my stone-obsessed dwarf cleric.. the DC is only 19 though, that's still not gonna cut it.."

See the trend?

Now, the Epic level handbook already starts to address this problem. It says that a creator can use Heighten Spell to boost the DC (higher level spell plus higher stat requirement). Doing this of course, increases the cost of the item since you increase the numbers the cost is derived from. It even has a feat that says a character making an item can use their own stat modifier in full, rather than just the minimum as is normal.

This is all fine and dandy when it comes to things like wands or staves or even the eyes of petrification mentioned above which really just casts the indicated spell. My question is, how much does a dagger of venom cost if it's made with a higher DC? What about other "+1" or "+2" enhancements for weapons or armour that grant an ability that requires a save such as a shield of blinding or a mace of disruption?

What kind of forumlas should I be looking for here?

Sheesh, that was lengthy.. thanks for any help you might have,

J from Three Haligonians

 

[Jack Simth]

Well, staves already use the wielder's relavant ability score and feats (as well as caster level, if it's higher than the staff's), so a simple formula on a Heightened spell as the higher spell level should deal with staves (in the hands of primary spellcasters, anyway - Bards and Rogues with UMD are still going to have issues).

For other items....

We have an item that comes in two versions: Slaying Arrow/Greater Slaying arrows; DC 20/23, market prices 2,282 / 4,057. Hmm. Requires Finger of Death / Heightened Finger of Death. Caster level 13, price for a masterwork arrow is, what, 7 gp/arrow? So the enchantment would then be 2,275/4,050.

Finger of Death is Sor/Wiz 7; minimum casting stat 17, a +3 modifier, leading to the DC 20. 2,275/(13*7)=25; 4,050/25=162=2*3*3*3*3; a 9th level Finger of Death would leave a caster level of 18 for the arrow, price wise - which is curious, normally, it would be 17 - would have a DC of 10+9+4=23 (as listed).

A Superb Slaying Arrow (DC, oh, 25 say) should then be as a 10th level spell (ignorning the epic *10 for a moment) and require a casting stat of 20 (+5) and would need a caster level of 19 (extrapolating from non-epic progressions on spells, that is); 19*10*25=4,750 gp. DC 28 would take, what, a 12th level spell equivalent, caster level 23, stat mod +6, for 6,900; DC 31 would be 14th, 27th, +7: 9,450 gp. DC 34 16th, 31st, +8: 12,400 gp (this is for the enchantment, and doesn't include the cost of the arrow).

Pipes of Pain: DC 14 would be a 3rd level spell with a minimimum casting stat; list price is 12,000 gp. 4,000 gp per spell level. Listed caster level is 6th, and... hmm. Doesn't divide readily; "base" value looks to be 666 and two thirds. Working with that, DC 31 would be 14th, 27th, and +7 for 252,000 gp (again, ignoring the Epic *10 modifier).

Eyes of Petrification: DC 19, caster level 11, 6th level spell, 98,000 gp. "base" price seems to be 1484.8484...., so for DC 31 (14th spell level, 27th caster level) would be 561,272.72.... (ignoring the Epic *10 modifier).


As for changing the +1/+2/+3/+whatever equivalent abilities? I don't know of anything official; if we reverse-engeneer the above, and take a look at the prices on the enchantments of things....

+1: 2,000
+2: 8,000
+3: 18,000
+4: 32,000
+5: 50,000
+6: 72,000
+7: 98,000
+8: 128,000
+9: 162,000
+10: 200,000

Well, really, it's the same overarching order as the wondrous items - O(n^2); a Dagger of Venom is priced as a +2 Dagger; as it has a +1 Enhancement bonus of it's own, the DC 14 (3rd level spell) 1/day free action Poison effect is a +1 equivalent enhancement. If we shrug and say each +1 is equivalent to +3 spell levels, then each +1 adds 4.5 to the save DC.

Check with different item: the Life Drinker has a 40,000 gp cost tacked onto the price of the masterwork axe; closest price is +4 at 32,000 gp, with an 8,000 gp offset. DC 16 would be a 4th level spell (which Enervation is). The Greataxe itself is a +1 Weapon, so... hmm. We have pricing for a +3 equivalent, plus 8,000 gp. Hmm.... that doesn't fit the earlier hypothesis. But then, the Lifedrinker has a continuous effect (each strike) whereas the Dagger of Venom is once/day. That might be worth, say, a +1 or +2 Equivalent, with the 8,000 being change for the distinction between the 3rd and 4th level spell.... pattern could work.

Then the question, of course, becomes: is a +1 equivalent balanced as a +4.5 to the save DC of a selected special ability on the item?



Oh, and if you're shooting off five Sleep Arrows each round, there's that pesky 1 that keeps coming into the equation; a 5% chance of knocking your opponent unconscious has a slightly meaningful probability of occurrence after three or four rounds.... assuming all the arrows hit.

 

[KarinsDad]

A +1 Dagger of Venom is a +2 equivalent weapon. So, it is +1 for the poison.

I would suggest +4 more DC for every +1 since the first one gave +4 DC over a 0th level spell equivalent.

A +1 Dagger of Venom with a +4 poison equivalent would then have a DC of 26 and a cost of 50,302 GP. Even 30th level non-Fort save specialized characters should fail against this every once in a while.

If you want to really make it tough, you could continue the trend upwards to +9 for the poison or a DC of 46. Course, the cost would be 200,302 GP.

DC 30: 72,302 GP
DC 34: 98,302 GP
DC 38: 128,302 GP
DC 42: 162,302 GP
DC 46: 200,302 GP

And, this does not get into Epic prices. But, even those 30th level Fighter types with a +30 to their Fort saves would fail sometimes against some of these more potent DCs.

 

[Sejs]

To be totally honest, here?

You're creating antagonists, yeah? Means you're the DM?

Fake it.

Don't sweat the exact nuts and bolts, just come up with something that you feel is an appropriate DC and give it a price that seems ballpark. Forget about the finer details, they'll never see the light of day anyhow.

 

[Paraxis]

The problem with faking equipment is that the players will get there hands on it.

At this level of play just give the bad guys special abilities and powers not available to the PC's, the assassin could have an epic feat that adds his level to the DC of Dagger of Venom and let him use it more than once a day. Or just any poison for that matter. The less equipment you give the PC's the better.

Make the bad guys have the abilities you want to and fake it, the players will not ever get their hands on the abilities.

Trying to keep CR, equipment, and stuff in balance will drive you nuts, wing it and have fun who cares if the bad guy has more or less equipment then he should based on some chart in the DMG. Same thing goes for the PC's if they have less gold then some table says they should.

 

[wmasters]

The players only get their hands on it if the NPC is killed by them. If it's a BBEG and at that level, there's various means of getting away. Teleporting, plane hopping etc are all possible options for him. The chart in the DMG surely isn't that important at 30th level anyway. I'm very much in the fake it camp; a rough approximation is really all you need.