When did We Stop Trusting Game Designers?

[carmachu]

Now, a thought hit me. What would happen if Mike Mearls had written either of these two bits in a recent Dragon magazine? There would be a mad rush of vitriol being spilled all over the forums. How dare he dictate my campaign world to me, would be the rallying cry.

Yet, EGG flat out dictates your world to you and no one raises an eyebrow. Zeb Cook does the same thing and is lauded by some for maintaining the mystery of magic items.

Now see, there's a flaw in your premise, or two.

First, while I like alot of what Merles has done, his work, he's not GG. *shrug* Gary is the grandfather of D&D so thats different ball parks.

Second? Many people i know also just flat out ignored his "there's no gun powder in D&D back in the day. And thought he was a bit crazy for that logic. Same with Cook. In fact arguements over it if I recall.


Another issue is? Merles and company has burned more bridges lately with the fans-depending on which side of the edition fence your on, with the comments in the hype up to 4e and trashing 3.x and its fans and such. Gary's and Zeb's burned bridges are much farther in the past.....

 

[justanobody]

If there was a way to make enough money to keep people employed on the old system, they'd have stuck to the old system (plus all the "How much more 3.x material do you need?" angle). And expecting "the designers" to fight "the suits" that pay them? Given how hard it is to break into the field in the first place? And how often we see layoffs from WotC? I'm guessing as much as a designer might love a departing system, they love keeping their job and feeding their family more. As well they should.

For us, RPG's are fun. For the companies that produce them, they're a business. For the designers and developers, they're both. I don't see how it can be any different, unless you want nothing but indie free PDF's created by fans in their part time. And that sort of thing can't sustain an industry or a hobby.

Who is talking about 3.anything D&D? Who cares about that crap. Wrong tree here to be barking that at!

I am talking about anything done since A/D&D was in WotC hands. 2nd edition that was blamed for killing T$R without looking at all the other screw ups done to the company lasted for 11 years. What has WotC done in the RPG world that has lasted that long? Kept Bill Slavesick and Rich Baker around? Is there anyone else other than those two left that came from TSR?

Ethics should be something important to designers especially if they have kids. What are you teaching your kids if your own ethics are not up to par. How long should you work on something you don't believe in just to say you are working? There are other jobs out there so don't be a one trick pony and have some other skill until you can find a job at a company with better ethics.

The problem is as you described and I bolded. RPGs have become more about making money for the companies than making good games. Why did D&D go far beyond the initial 5000 photocopied versions of the white box and Chainmail in ziplock baggies? Because it was good designers making games rather than companies. Now they sell because some marketing engine is bigger than the design power. This marketing engine could be selling dog poo for vegetable garden fetilizer and people buying it even though it offers zero nutrients for plants and can be harmful to humans that eat the veggies.

The designers are what the entire process revolves around and must make a stand. But they have to do it together. Do you think the writer's strike did nothing? It caused some TV shows to end early because of lack of interest, and caused some lacking movies with substandard writers, but it got things done and a change effected that would make things in the future better. I mean if all the D&D designers went on strike from WotC, do you think WotC would be able to just grab other people to replace them in the interim of the strike being solved? Sure they could hire freelancers to take up some slack, and Hasbro could decide to drop D&D....or can they? Only if they wish to dissolve WotC after dumping all their games into it, because WotC needs D&D as a name bigger than Magic as a property to make money, so Hasbro would be foolish to drop it and cripple WotC which is basically the Hasbro game makers right now.

So yes designers do have something to say and can stick up for any older thing and against change if they choose to do so. The question is what is more important to them.

Personally I wouldn't hire a person wanting to just make money to support their kids where thinking is involved. Someone to just lift and move things, sure, but if you are at your job with just money at home on your mind, you may not be fully focused on your job which requires calm thinking and creativity. I would rather have that employee fight me over something that they feel is more important because they, the designers, should know better than me or a marketing team as they are the ones creating the thing and know how to make it work.

One of the reasons DDI will not and has not worked yet, because the designers there at least have tried to stand up to silly people that don't know what is going on and wouldn't listen with ridiculous time tables for things to get done because those people don't understand how to write computer code or even how to make it work. It is why they hired those designers afterall so these companies should start to listen to the people they hired because before then the company didn't know how to do the thing they hired these people for....

Maybe the remaining T$R leftovers need to be gotten rid of in the game making department and get all new people.

I mean it is pretty bad IF the designers aren't fighting for something and the Brand manager has to do all the fighting to prevent something from becoming crap. And the way it seems right now Scott Rouse is the only thing keeping D&D aloive or giving any substantial information to the people about it.

If PHB2 with Mearls in the lead has his new "optinal" damage rules in it, then I will think the designers fought to get something in hard enough, but we really don't know and can only guess it to be the designer doing, because the execs hide behind them and never come out in the open to accept fault for their doings prior to Randy Buehler. Ken Troop ran and hid real fast!

The industry needs the hobby more than the hobby needs the industry.

Exactly!

 

[garyh]

Wizards has never depended upon D&D to stay afloat.

Note also that after each new edition comes out, they have lay offs.

I wasn't saying WotC relied on D&D to keep the whole company afloat. But the D&D division has to bring in enough money to make it worthwhile or the brand will be hibernated or sold off, and all the current D&D designers will be out of jobs.

And yeah, I know about the post-new-edition-cycle layoffs. If anything, that puts the designers in a more precarious situation.

The industry needs the hobby more than the hobby needs the industry.

Certainly. I don't recall saying otherwise. But I don't think it'd be healthy for the hobby if WotC and official D&D disappeared and all that was out there was fan-produced PDFs. Not a way to grow the hobby, not a way to have a critical mass of people sharing the same game.

 

[garyh]

Who is talking about 3.anything D&D? Who cares about that crap. Wrong tree here to be barking that at!

So are you saying WotC should still be actively supporting BECMI/RC/1E/2E? Really? You think that would be a wise use of staff time and development budget and produce a reasonable return on investment?

I am talking about anything done since A/D&D was in WotC hands. 2nd edition that was blamed for killing T without looking at all the other screw ups done to the company lasted for 11 years. What has WotC done in the RPG world that has lasted that long? Kept Bill Slavesick and Rich Baker around? Is there anyone else other than those two left that came from TSR?

<snip>

I'm not sure where this is all going. All I can extract is that you seem to like neither how TSR or WotC has handled D&D. In which case, I can only ask, how did you become a fan if you think it's been grossly mismanaged the entirety of the game's existence?

Also, you seem to have a lot of idealistic notions about employment that I can hardly follow, but from what I can gather seem to amount to "screw the Man!" and "if you care about getting paid, you don't really care about what you're doing." Which is just absurd, if that's actually what you're trying to say.

 

[Fifth Element]

Also, you seem to have a lot of idealistic notions about employment that I can hardly follow, but from what I can gather seem to amount to "screw the Man!" and "if you care about getting paid, you don't really care about what you're doing." Which is just absurd, if that's actually what you're trying to say.

I'm getting the same impression.

I can say that I very much care about my work, about my clients, I want to make sure they get the best out of me that I can give them. I also want to get paid. I need to get paid, in fact, because I have a family to support. Regardless of the pride and satisfaction I might get from my work if I did it for free, I would not be able to do it for free.

Talking about fantasy is fine when you're talking about what happens in the game. But outside the game, reality is king.

 

[justanobody]

@garyh:

WotC could do like they seem to be going to do most other things. Hire freelance authors and pay them like they pay for submissions for ANY older edition, and own the work, and then give writing credits tot he freelancers while retaining all the rights and profits form the sales.

They have very little resources to put into it IF they wanted to support any older edition. The most they could lose is their 6 cents per word from the freelancer/submission.

With 3rd they wouldn't even need to do that as 3rd edition support was freely given away under OGL.

But how hard would it be to take submissions for older editions except for the fact they don't want to support it?

T$R =/= TSR. I do like things in AD&D, but not the way it was handled that let WotC get their nasty hands on it.

I simply do not worship money like most other people do. The paper currency says "In God We Trust", not "In Money We Trust". But this is getting into politics and religion, so will not say further about that.

I just prefer people doing something they enjoy and are happy doing to get quality work and quality product from, rather than someone working just for the money and getting subpar or worse quality because they do it just to get the money and get it done rather than do it to get the thing done right. Too many things are made today by cutting corners that lower quality of things.

Gary et all did it because they truely enjoyed it, but now under big industry, people are doing it to support the companies, rather than the game. It isn't just the RPG industry either, but I guess that also is politics so must be dropped.....

So it comes down to which you prefer designers to do things? Do you want quantity or quality? Then which does the company those designers work for want?

Personally I will take quality over quantity any day!

 

[El Mahdi]

...I don't think it'd be healthy for the hobby if WotC and official D&D disappeared and all that was out there was fan-produced PDFs. Not a way to grow the hobby, not a way to have a critical mass of people sharing the same game.

I really don't see this as a bad thing. The cream always rises to the top. If people have good ideas, and post them on the internet, the best will get the most attention. I don't think it would be any harder to sift the wheat from the chaff than it is right now.

Now, I'm not saying I wish WoTC would close up and that this very scenario becomes reality. I wouldn't wish that upon anyone who relies on the RPG Industry for their livelyhood. But if it did happen, I feel the hobby itself would go on without any major handicap. As long as there is an internet, and good RPG fansites like ENWorld, I think the future of the hobby is in no danger whatsoever.

edit: Besides, we all don't share the same game right now (and I'm not just talking about a 3E / 4E thing). There are 100's of games out there right now that we all play. We all have our preferences, and they are extremely varied.

 

[garyh]

@garyh:

WotC could do like they seem to be going to do most other things. Hire freelance authors and pay them like they pay for submissions for ANY older edition, and own the work, and then give writing credits tot he freelancers while retaining all the rights and profits form the sales.

They have very little resources to put into it IF they wanted to support any older edition. The most they could lose is their 6 cents per word from the freelancer/submission.

With 3rd they wouldn't even need to do that as 3rd edition support was freely given away under OGL.

But how hard would it be to take submissions for older editions except for the fact they don't want to support it?

Well, they would still have to pay the people providing work, freelance or not. Then they'd have to pay for editing and typesetting/layout. And would it get playtested? If not, then who can vouch for the quality? Oh, and any professional product should have illustrations. Then, once it's tested, edited, illustrated, and laid out, you have to do some sort of advertising to let people know it exists, and you have to pay something to distribute it (even RPGNow takes their slice). All of those things cost money. Do you really think enough people are going to buy stuff for older editions that WotC should spend that money to bring this hypothetical product to market? And meanwhile, this hypothetical product is competing for gamer dollars with the current edition releases.

T =/= TSR. I do like things in AD&D, but not the way it was handled that let WotC get their nasty hands on it.

I simply do not worship money like most other people do. The paper currency says "In God We Trust", not "In Money We Trust". But this is getting into politics and religion, so will not say further about that.

I just prefer people doing something they enjoy and are happy doing to get quality work and quality product from, rather than someone working just for the money and getting subpar or worse quality because they do it just to get the money and get it done rather than do it to get the thing done right. Too many things are made today by cutting corners that lower quality of things.

Gary et all did it because they truely enjoyed it, but now under big industry, people are doing it to support the companies, rather than the game. It isn't just the RPG industry either, but I guess that also is politics so must be dropped.....

So it comes down to which you prefer designers to do things? Do you want quantity or quality? Then which does the company those designers work for want?

Personally I will take quality over quantity any day!

This, again, seems to get back to the, well, naive idea of what industry, employment, and commerce should be. And another healthy dose of "back in the old days, (generic topic) was better!"

 

[garyh]

I really don't see this as a bad thing. The cream always rises to the top. If people have good ideas, and post them on the internet, the best will get the most attention. I don't think it would be any harder to sift the wheat from the chaff than it is right now.

Now, I'm not saying I wish WoTC would close up and that this very scenario becomes reality. I wouldn't wish that upon anyone who relies on the RPG Industry for their livelyhood. But if it did happen, I feel the hobby itself would go on without any major handicap. As long as there is an internet, and good RPG fansites like ENWorld, I think the future of the hobby is in no danger whatsoever.

edit: Besides, we all don't share the same game right now (and I'm not just talking about a 3E / 4E thing). There are 100's of games out there right now that we all play. We all have our preferences, and they are extremely varied.

Very true on the "not all on the same page right now" point, but it's still a much larger pool of shared experience than if D&D disappeared. But at some level, I think there needs to be some sort of leader that serves as a relatively common shared game and an entry point to the hobby. Without the giant, I think the fringe/niche/splinter games would be really hurt as new players stopped entering RPG's via the game that's synonymous with the hobby.

 

[pemerton]

I just prefer people doing something they enjoy and are happy doing to get quality work and quality product from, rather than someone working just for the money and getting subpar or worse quality because they do it just to get the money and get it done rather than do it to get the thing done right. Too many things are made today by cutting corners that lower quality of things.

This, plus your earlier post upthread, seems to presuppose one or both of the following: (i) that the 3E and 4e designers don't think they're doing their best work, but are just in it for the money; (ii) that 3E and 4e are low-quality, corner-cutting game design. Is there any real evidence for either of these? I'm no big fan of 3E, but not because I think it's corner-cutting. That is a bizarre suggestion in relation to such highly-designed, highly-developed, highly-playtested RPGs.

Personally I will take quality over quantity any day!

Likewise. That's why the whitespace in the 4e books doesn't bother me.