When does SR apply?

[Jack Simth]

Hasn't come up, but I'm curious what the rules lawyers here think about a few questions of who gets to apply their SR:

Suppose a golem that is otherwise way too difficult for the party is ordered to attack the party Sorceror to the exlusion of all else (The party Greatsword Barbarian could take the golem down with ten rounds of raging full power attacking, say, but not less than that)

Suppose again the Sorceror has no spells that can affect the golem directly, but does have Resiliant Sphere available, and casts it on himself.

Now, Resilient Sphere permits SR, and the golem has effectively infinite spell resistence.

1) Does the golem walk through the sphere and squish the Sorceror, or does it fail to penetrate the Sphere?
1b) Does it make a difference if it's a creature with excessive levels of SR from a spell, rather than a golem?
2) Does it make a difference if the Sorceror doesn't have Resilient Sphere, but is instead emulating it with Shadow Evocation (and voluntarily failing his save, assuming for now that's permitted for his own illusion spell)?
2b) Does it make a difference if it's a creature with excessive levels of SR from a spell, rather than a golem?
3) Does it make a difference if the Sorceror is using Greater Shadow Evocation to emulate a Wall of Force surrounding him?
3b) Does it make a difference if it's a creature with excessive levels of SR from a spell, rather than a golem?
4) Can a golem walk through a Wall of Stone created by a Grater Shadow Conjouration (which permits SR, even if the spell it's duplicating doesn't)?
4b) Does it make a difference if it's a creature with excessive levels of SR from a spell, rather than a golem?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Hasn't come up, but I'm curious what the rules lawyers here think about a few questions of who gets to apply their SR:

Suppose a golem that is otherwise way too difficult for the party is ordered to attack the party Sorceror to the exlusion of all else (The party Greatsword Barbarian could take the golem down with ten rounds of raging full power attacking, say, but not less than that)

Suppose again the Sorceror has no spells that can affect the golem directly, but does have Resiliant Sphere available, and casts it on himself.

Now, Resilient Sphere permits SR, and the golem has effectively infinite spell resistence.

Which would matter if the resilient sphere were cast upon the golem. If it's not, then the SR has no effect.

"In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place."

Since there are spells that specifically call out what happens when a critter with SR later encounters them, and there are none that say "a creature with SR who later encounters this spell gets no SR against it", I'd guess that the spell entries assume that spell resistence only applies when the creature is targeted by the spell.

 

[Bastoche]

What about scry on a creature with SR?

 

[Infiniti2000]

1) Does the golem walk through the sphere and squish the Sorceror, or does it fail to penetrate the Sphere?

It fails to penetrate the sphere. The SR is for the target of the spell. This answers 'b', too.

2) Does it make a difference if the Sorceror doesn't have Resilient Sphere, but is instead emulating it with Shadow Evocation (and voluntarily failing his save, assuming for now that's permitted for his own illusion spell)?

It makes no difference. It would function just like resilient sphere given your assumptions. This answers 'b' as well.

3) Does it make a difference if the Sorceror is using Greater Shadow Evocation to emulate a Wall of Force surrounding him?

Big difference. Now, the golem gets to apply his SR, which automatically succeeds. Note that shadow evocation specifically allows SR even if the normal spell does not. Since the spell is not targeted on someone in particular, the SR and will save applies to everyone who comes into contact with it.

3b) Does it make a difference if it's a creature with excessive levels of SR from a spell, rather than a golem?

Only in that the caster has to overcome the non-golem's SR.

4) Can a golem walk through a Wall of Stone created by a Grater Shadow Conjouration (which permits SR, even if the spell it's duplicating doesn't)?

Yes, just like with Wall of Force and Greater Shadow Evocation.

4b) Does it make a difference if it's a creature with excessive levels of SR from a spell, rather than a golem?

Same answer as '3b'.

 

[Infiniti2000]

What about scry on a creature with SR?

You have to overcome the creature's SR.

 

[Jack Simth]

Fun traps involving SR and Shadow spells:

Get a big pit.
Put something that can shut down whatever happens to have the SR in pit.
Cover pit with a Wall of Stone emulated by Greater Shadow Conjouration at the lowest caster level manageable.
Convince an SR equipped critter to walk over said pit.

Possible Applications:

Standard dungeon hallway scenario
Rogue is searching for traps. Thus the rogue carefully inspects the floor, and qualifies for a will save to detect it's nature. Rogue's don't by default have good will saves, so he is likely to not recognize it's nature, and continue on. For him, there is no trap (unless he has SR too....).
Wizard of party happens to have a permanencied Detect magic and, not seeing any magic, gives no alarm.
SR equipped party member, confident in the Rogue's ability to find traps (or spring them, being in the lead), and the Wizard's ability to detect magic steps blithly on the imitation stone. Depending on the amount of SR and the caster level of the "floor", the SR character falls.

Bridges can also work, such as those over rough water. Anyone can use the bridge with no real danger... unless they have SR. Great initial filter for an evil ruler trying to eliminate possible high-powered threats....


Golem/Drow/Whatever Surprise
Party "surprises" a spellcaster in a prepared den, alone. Spellcaster calls for guards, and the party laughs, as they were already taken out. Party stops laughing when golems/drow/whatever step through the walls (again, emulated Wall of Stone), and then the spellcaster emulates a resilient spehere on himself to get out of harm's way.

Safe Storeage:
SR equipped character puts a hole somewhere, covers it with an emulated Wall of Stone, perhaps covers that with an Illusory wall, then walks through and puts stuff down. Most things won't even get a save to notice it's prescense (no interaction), many of those that do will only get past the first illusion, and discover a wall of stone.... and not really investigate further. Many of those who get past both will still by stymied by a solid wall of shadow. Creator can walk in and out pretty much at will, knowing it's there and having SR, without casting another spell to do so.


Even better, as the Shadow series inherits duration from the emulated spell, an emulated wall of stone: A) doesn't register as magic to such spells as Detect Magic B) can't be dispelled after it's in place, C) is uneffected by an Anti-Magic Field, and D) still permit SR.

Shadow is fun material!

 

[Saeviomagy]

Possible Applications:

Standard dungeon hallway scenario
Rogue is searching for traps. Thus the rogue carefully inspects the floor, and qualifies for a will save to detect it's nature. Rogue's don't by default have good will saves, so he is likely to not recognize it's nature, and continue on. For him, there is no trap (unless he has SR too....).
Wizard of party happens to have a permanencied Detect magic and, not seeing any magic, gives no alarm.
SR equipped party member, confident in the Rogue's ability to find traps (or spring them, being in the lead), and the Wizard's ability to detect magic steps blithly on the imitation stone. Depending on the amount of SR and the caster level of the "floor", the SR character falls.

Note that there's also the 60% chance whether it affects him or not.

Edit: Oh, wait: there's not. He's not actually disbelieving it - he's just immune to its effects.

I'm not sure this works though - I still don't think you get SR if the spell does not target you or state that it has an unusual effect when targeting a creature with SR.

 

[irdeggman]

Hmmm from the SRD:

When Spell Resistance Applies
Each spell includes an entry that indicates whether spell resistance applies to the spell. In general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does:

Targeted Spells: Spell resistance applies if the spell is targeted at the creature. Some individually targeted spells can be directed at several creatures simultaneously. In such cases, a creature’s spell resistance applies only to the portion of the spell actually targeted at that creature. If several different resistant creatures are subjected to such a spell, each checks its spell resistance separately.

Area Spells: Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell’s area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself.

Effect Spells: Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly, such as web.

Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that’s already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell.

Check spell resistance only once for any particular casting of a spell or use of a spell-like ability. If spell resistance fails the first time, it fails each time the creature encounters that same casting of the spell. Likewise, if the spell resistance succeeds the first time, it always succeeds. If the creature has voluntarily lowered its spell resistance and is then subjected to a spell, the creature still has a single chance to resist that spell later, when its spell resistance is up.

Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Creatures can be harmed by a spell without being directly affected.

Spell resistance does not apply if an effect fools the creature’s senses or reveals something about the creature.

Magic actually has to be working for spell resistance to apply. Spells that have instantaneous durations but lasting results aren’t subject to spell resistance unless the resistant creature is exposed to the spell the instant it is cast.

When in doubt about whether a spell’s effect is direct or indirect, consider the spell’s school:
Abjuration: The target creature must be harmed, changed, or restricted in some manner for spell resistance to apply. Perception changes aren’t subject to spell resistance.

Abjurations that block or negate attacks are not subject to an attacker’s spell resistance—it is the protected creature that is affected by the spell (becoming immune or resistant to the attack).

Conjuration: These spells are usually not subject to spell resistance unless the spell conjures some form of energy. Spells that summon creatures or produce effects that function like creatures are not subject to spell resistance.

Divination: These spells do not affect creatures directly and are not subject to spell resistance, even though what they reveal about a creature might be very damaging.
Enchantment: Since enchantment spells affect creatures’ minds, they are typically subject to spell resistance.

Evocation: If an evocation spell deals damage to the creature, it has a direct effect. If the spell damages something else, it has an indirect effect.

Illusion: These spells are almost never subject to spell resistance. Illusions that entail a direct attack are exceptions.

Necromancy: Most of these spells alter the target creature’s life force and are subject to spell resistance. Unusual necromancy spells that don’t affect other creatures directly are not subject to spell resistance.

Transmutation: These spells are subject to spell resistance if they transform the target creature. Transmutation spells are not subject to spell resistance if they are targeted on a point in space instead of on a creature. Some transmutations make objects harmful (or more harmful), such as magic stone. Even these spells are not generally subject to spell resistance because they affect the objects, not the creatures against which the objects are used. Spell resistance works against magic stone only if the creature with spell resistance is holding the stones when the cleric casts magic stone on them.

Shadow Conjuration:

Spells that deal damage have normal effects unless the affected creature succeeds on a Will save. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth (20%) damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is only 20% likely to occur. Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow conjuration’s level (4th) rather than the spell’s normal level. In addition, any effect created by shadow conjuration allows spell resistance, even if the spell it is simulating does not. Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them.

Against disbelievers, they are 20% likely to work.

In order to have SR apply the shadow magic must cause damage or have an effect that does. (see entry under Illusions above.) The section under shadow conjuring that talks about SR applying is under the paragraph talking about simulated spells that casue damage - which is why the spell entry says SR: yes, see text (that means there are specifics on how it applies rather than a flat out always applies)


Get a big pit.
SR doesn't apply - no direct damage causing by the "fake floor".


Standard dungeon hallway scenario
SR doesn't work for same reason.


Bridges can also work
SR doesn't work for same reason


Golem/Drow/Whatever Surprise
SR doesn't negate a wall, as far as I can tell adn this shadow spell also doesn't cause damage. There are other ways for the spellcaster to get out though - still a neat idea.

Safe Storeage:
SR doesn't work for same reasons as above

SR is not a portable anti-magic field it has specific applications.

 

[Jack Simth]

<shrug> exploring implications of the previous answer. If that was accurate, so were the applications; if that was inacurate, so were the applications.

Okay, so spell resitance is out for walking through a shadow wall/floor ... does the x% chance of nondamaging effects working if will save is made apply to the same effect, only with different targets? Example: does that Shadow Conjouration floor let the Rogue and Fighter pass over freely due to their poor will saves, but when the Cleric and Wizard walk over it and make their saves, each has a 60% chance of falling through? Or does the entire party walk blithly over, with a few knowing what it actually is? Or does the 60% real for that kind of thing merely apply to HP? Is there a significant functional difference between a Greater Shadow Evocation(Wall of Force) and a real Wall of Force?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Okay, so spell resitance is out for walking through a shadow wall/floor ... does the x% chance of nondamaging effects working if will save is made apply to the same effect, only with different targets? Example: does that Shadow Conjouration floor let the Rogue and Fighter pass over freely due to their poor will saves, but when the Cleric and Wizard walk over it and make their saves, each has a 60% chance of falling through? Or does the entire party walk blithly over, with a few knowing what it actually is? Or does the 60% real for that kind of thing merely apply to HP? Is there a significant functional difference between a Greater Shadow Evocation(Wall of Force) and a real Wall of Force?

shadow evocation handles it differently to shadow conjuration. A nondamaging shadow conjuration effect specifically functions X% of the time. So yes - the cleric and the wizard will make their saves and have a chance of falling through.

If it's a shadow evocation, however, it has NO EFFECT against nonbelievers. So the cleric and the wizard will ALWAYS fall through if they succeed.