When does Verisimilitude break down?

BiggusGeekus said:
It can fall apart at level ten, when you've kicked the bad guy's butt a little sooner than the DM planned and suddenly you find your world invaded by mind flayers for no reason.

I'm not sure why, but that image is insanely funny to me. The fighter pulls his sword free from the BBEG's chest and spits on his corpse. The rogue signals everyone to be silent. They hear nothing. Then they hear something. A rubbery, slimy, sloshing sound that amplifies with every passing second. And then, hordes and hordes of octopus-headed humanoids spurt from the doors, windows, chimney. The cleric prays to his mommy, and the wizard senses that he'll be missing his brain real bad, real soon.

Anywho.

On a totally unrelated topic, do you guys (and gals) "think" (ie say in your head) SHARK's name louder?

Now. Where does the versimilitude break down for me? I really have trouble (lately) with starting off with high-level characters. Maybe because I've made a couple recently, due to a higher-than-average mortality rate. "OK, so you guys are 9th* level, you've been together a long time. What do you do now?" I guess I have problems with all high level games. When magic lets you do pretty much anything, avoid anything... Of course that could be the frustrated-by-his-players'-wily-tactics DM in me talking :D

AR

*Yes this is not particularly high level, but it's high for most campaigns I've been involved in.
 

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Although I'm not really a fan of earlier editions of the game, I do retain one atavism from 1e days -- I consider 10th level or so to be extremely high level still. :)

And yes, you do have to shout SHARK's name.
 

SHARK is one of my close friends although I haven't spoken with him lately. I'll give him a call and tell him about this thread.

In the meantime, I'll try to describe SHARK's world but I don't think I can do it justice. SHARK's world is a homebrew that he has been working on for well over 15 years and probably longer but I'm not sure.

When I had the opportunity to play in his game in LA, I saw some of it. He has binders and binders stuffed full of papers, maps, NPCs, just tons of material.

His world is loosely inspired by Warhammer, Tolkien, Moorcock, and tons of real world history. SHARK is a history major with a particular interest in military history and it shows in his world.

He liked the concept of the forces of darkness and chaos threatening to overwhelm the world and cover the lands in darkness, but he felt settings like Warhammer were too pessimistic. There wasn't a counter-balance to the forces of evil. So he invented the Vallorean empire. The Vallorean Empire are the good guys of his world. But since his world is very dark and gritty, his heroes are also.

The Vallorean Empire is famous for its paladins on ENworld. They aren't your standard PHB paladins. They are more closely based on the Knights Templar from the Crusades. They are ruthless and zealous warriors charged with bringing "fire and death to the forces of darkness!" as SHARK would say. :)

But in SHARK's world the villains are truly vile and evil. Dark cultists who would cut out their own mother's heart and offer it to Orcus, foul necromancers who think nothing of sacrifcing the innocent in their unholy research. Female NPCs captured by the forces of evil would be raped. Evil is EVIL is SHARK's world. No sugar-coating and no kid gloves. Brutal reality.

Not to say there aren't shades of grey. While the Vallorean Empire is generally good, some consider them extreme in their methods. There are also tons of internal politics in Vallorea. And Vallorea isn't even the biggest empire in SHARK's world. There are many other powerful nations.

The thing to remember is that SHARK's world was also designed to encompass epic level gaming. His world is also big, and I mean BIG. The Vallorean Empire is probably the size of U.S. and has an army with dozens of legions with millions of soldiers. Every legionaire is an 8th level fighter supplied with basic magical gear by the Vallorean government. Not including the elite paladin legions or entire units of powerful mages.

20th level NPC's are common and even higher 40 or 50th level NPCs are not unheard of. Currently the Vallorean Empire invaded the kingdom of an ancient Vampire Lord named Mallenar. Mallenar is something like 80th level and is a virtual god. He commands millions perhaps even billions of beastmen, orcs, giants you name it.

About a year ago I played a 40th level character in SHARK's world and took part in a Vallorean siege on one of Mallenar's fortresses. I was part of an elite strike unit featherfalled onto the upper courtyard of the mountain fortress from a flying Vallorean citadel. We had perhaps several thousand legionaires with us and were immediately in danger of being overrun by beastmen. We had our mages set up walls of force to provide some cover and give us a staging ground. My character, a 20/20 Sorcerer/Monk teleported over to a nearby rampart where about 20 15th fighter fire giants armed with +5 unholy flaming arrows were hammering our troops. I killed 3 fire giants before teleporting back. I was hasted (3.0 rules) and using my extra partial action to cast Wish as Heal every round since those giants were just wasting me. Although that fight wasn't that bad. It was taking on the 20 Winter Wights that was the real killer! :)

But SHARK's world is not just a powergamer's wet dream. It also has tons of drama and role-playing. My PC had a great scene where I met one of the Vallorean Commanders and he gave me a short tour of one of the cities they had captured. Later, I went to among some of those Vallorean soldiers who had been wounded or mutated by chaos magic. Standard clerical healing won't help them. You have to make caster level checks to overcome the dark magic. I tried to use my magic to help some of them (using Wish to cast clerical spells). It was amazing walking through there and listening to SHARK describe the scene. I felt like I was in some WW2 tent for the wounded. Walking around and looking at all their wounds and mutations. Some of them screaming in unbearable pain, others in shock. SHARK really brought the horror of war to life in vivid and cinematic detail. My encounters and conversations with other Vallorean officers and NPC party members were awesome. Unfortunately, I only got to play in his game during the middle of a war so it was very combat focused. But SHARK's games don't always feature war stories.

I only wished I lived in LA so I could play with him more often. :)
 

re

When the DM allows it to break down or the DM and a player seriously disagree on some aspect of the game that makes it impossible for the player to maintain his or her "suspension of disbelief". There is no subjective point at which verisimilitude breaks down for everyone.
 
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SHARK seems to have solved the warfare issue. According to the rules, 1st level warriors seem to make up the bulk of a nation's armed forces. I can understand 1st level warriors being used as police forces (since most of the population is also 1st level), but when it comes to war, they're just cannon fodder! SHARK's world seems to have much higher level combatants as the norm.
 



A'koss said:
I can deal with hp (for the most part), I can deal with magic, but where it breaks down for me is in the portrayal of beings much, much smarter and wiser than I am.

For example, trying to differentiate between the plans and actions of a creature that has a 26 Int and/or Wis, another with a 36 Int and/or Wis and a third with a 46 Int and/or Wis.

A'koss.
Amber had a way of dealing with this, though it involves a bit of cheating.

When a PC does something that you feel you SHOULD have thought of, but had a brain fart and DIDN'T... assume that the NPC, smarter than you, didn't have that cerebral subluxation and that he DID think of it, and he DID take precautions against that very ploy.

If you're not sure if he would have, make an INT check.
 

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