When exactly are Spot/Listen reflexive?

[Amazing Mumford]

Just a quick question, I've got players who like to try to use spot, listen, spellcraft, and knowledge skills all the time as "reflexive " actions, and therefore taking no time. I think these skills are as other skills, and take standard actions in a round, and also there are even a few feats that allow you to use some of these skills reflexively, which would be absolutely pointless if they could be used that way anyway. Can someone please help me define when exactly as skill can be used basically for free as a reflexive action, and when it takes a standard action as normal? Much appreciated...

 

[Bagpuss]

I've always used them passively. IE: As long as you have your eyes open and nothing jammed in your ears then you get a roll. The feats that make them free actions seem stupid to me.

 

[Mavrik]

You get spot and listen free for the first time in a situation
ie when someone tries to sneak past you for the first time, spotting distances for initiative or suprise etc. When you 'could' first see or notice someone this takes no actions.

You can do the same thing for Listen too.

Knowledge checks are kind of the same...
Action.. usually none, In most cases making a Knowledge check doesn't take an action - you simply know the answer or you dont.

So you could walk into a room... make a spot and listen... see a creature and make your Knowledege arcane to know it a cockatrice and with a good roll know it turns you to stone if it bites you.. but its a fortitude check so send the fighters in, and you could shout this to comrades all as a no actions and out of initiative

But.....

Not an action is usually part of an action that you get for free while doing something else
and
There is a lot to be said for the DM perogative of how many free action can be taken in a round and thats up to you.

Personally I dont see a problem in the above scenario.

 

[Tatsukun]

If you are making the check because someone else has done something at the time (a person lies to you, or hides from you) you just make it for free, not even on your turn.

If you want to try again, you need to use an action.

You walk into a room, you see the hiding guy or you don't (non-action). Someone tells you there is a hiding guy and you 'take another look', that's an action.

It's kind of like a saving throw in that you can do it at any time, assuming it been caused by someone else's action.

-Tatsu

 

[Li Shenron]

Just a quick question, I've got players who like to try to use spot, listen, spellcraft, and knowledge skills all the time as "reflexive " actions, and therefore taking no time. I think these skills are as other skills, and take standard actions in a round, and also there are even a few feats that allow you to use some of these skills reflexively, which would be absolutely pointless if they could be used that way anyway. Can someone please help me define when exactly as skill can be used basically for free as a reflexive action, and when it takes a standard action as normal? Much appreciated...

First it is not true that skills take standard actions usually. That is the default meaning that if the description doesn't tell you what other action, but the description usually tells you anyway, and there are many skills which aren't. Furthermore, it can vary depending on what for you're using that skill.

Spot & Listen are used as reactions (no action) when a roll is granted to notice something, visually or audibly. Ex.: passing nearby a door and noticing someone's talking in the other room; noticing someone moving in the dark alley.
They are used as actions (move action) when the character decides to actively spends time
and concentrate in watching or listening. Ex.: you eavesdrop on that conversation past the door to sort out the words; you focus on the one in the dark alley to understand what he's doing.

Spellcraft is used in many situations, and represent a complex practical experience with spells, besides actual casting. The instant uses with no actions are typically when identifying a spell being cast (you can imagine it takes about the same time as it takes for the other to cast that spell, but the PC can watch without stopping what else he's doing) or the effects of a spell already cast. In other cases the check is part of another action.

Knowledge skills are really something totally apart. There's not even the concept of action here, the check only represents the % chance for you to know something about that topic, and time is not involved. Everything that people may say about memory here is totally made up (there's no such thing as memory rules in core D&D), but if you go that route then it opens up a can of worms about e.g. taking more time to better remember the thing.

 

[Aaron L]

Um, well Spot is ALWAYS reflexive, and represents your reflexive awareness of your surroundings. Thats why its separate from Search, and based on WIsdom instead of Intelligence. Listen is usually reflexive, unless youre doing something like listening at a door.


"Ok, Im going to try to Spot!" just doesnt make any sense.

 

[Li Shenron]

"Ok, Im going to try to Spot!" just doesnt make any sense.

However, the "spot something you failed to notice before" is a valid action by the PHB. Rarely used IMXP, but sometimes it happens that Search doesn't fit fully.

 

[andargor]

However, the "spot something you failed to notice before" is a valid action by the PHB. Rarely used IMXP, but sometimes it happens that Search doesn't fit fully.

Interesting, I'd never noticed that. You can even "try again" or read lips.

I guess it's the difference between "I'm alert, but I don't know what I'm looking for" (Spot), whereas Search is methodical.

Andargor

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

"Ok, Im going to try to Spot!" just doesnt make any sense.

Uh, yeah it does.

"Hey, man, check out that woodpecker!"

"Where?"

"On that tree over there."

There you go - trying to spot, and with an Aid Another thrown in for good measure.

 

[Amazing Mumford]

Guys, thanks for your time and input with this-- I think I do agree with you that most of the time these are skills are "passive" and hence mostly "reflexive". Good points, especially Mavrik, Tatsukun, Li Shenron, and Patryn of Elvenshae nice call on the "aid another"...

Anyone have any tips/ideas/house rules on free actions? Does anyone limit them in the name of speeding-up combat a little, or for the most part allow as many as possible? Or would this be considered a new thread??