When is a campaign setting no longer relevant?

[rounser]

It's easy for us to say, "hey, these are classics, timeless!" but are they?

Mythology manages it. AD&D and Greyhawk hew pretty close to mythology (as opposed to contrived stuff). It doesn't take much to grok mythology, because by definition it's already the kind of thing that resonates with new generations, and is as unlikely to lose it's appeal or "relevancy" as the entire fantasy genre is.

I'm pretty sure Rowling ran into D&D at some stage, for instance (a few too many coincidences for that not to be the case IMO), and 13 year olds find hippogriffs kind of cool automatically, given the right context. Mythological resonance is something D&D should have in spades in order to stay relevant, and I think the current implied setting compromises that to an extent.

IMO, nevermind the relevance of Greyhawk, worry about the mythological resonance of the implied setting described by the PHBs. I think they're taking steps backward in this respect.

 

[wedgeski]

Rubbish. Those two (and several others) *are* game settings, even if they didn't start out that way. Several game settings have at some stage become literary settings, too. . . oh noes! Strike those out as well, then.

Middle Earth is a game setting? No, it's been borrowed a few times and a veneer of rules have been struck over the top, but that doesn't make it a game setting. Oerth, Toril, Eberron... they were envisioned as a place to roleplay, and no amount of fiction will ever change that fact.

 

[Set]

There's a difference between something becoming so dated as to be inaccessible and something being no longer profitable (or just not as profitable as another property) due to niche appeal.

The mythos developed by Robert E Howard and H.P. Lovecraft back in the early years of the last century still have appeal, and in both cases, still inspire movies (there are both a new Conan movie *and* a Mountains of Madness movie in the works!), games and books. Works by stodgy traditionalists like Tolkein and C.S Lewis have also seen recent resurgences in popularity (spurred by movies).

A fantasy setting, by definition, cannot become an anachronism, since it never was a part of history anyway. Even a setting drenched in misogyny or racist elements, such as the setting of 'Slaves Girls of Gor,' has it's fanbase.

Declaring Blackmoor, Mystara, Greyhawk, etc. 'dead' is premature so long as even one person enjoys using those settings (or even just enjoys reading the books). The game has changed. Tastes have changed. And yet, 'growing up' and 'moving on' doesn't necessarily mean that one has to crap all over the past.

I don't remember the painful bits of older editions with rose-colored glasses, but I don't wear ****-colored glasses either, and remember only the bad things.

 

[rounser]

Oerth, Toril, Eberron... they were envisioned as a place to roleplay, and no amount of fiction will ever change that fact.

Just a nitpick, but it's not a fact in the case of Toril. It was originally for Howard-like short stories starring Mirt the Moneylender and friends. Only later did Ed renovate his world for AD&D use, and make the magic "vancian" in nature.

I don't think your point has much oomph. I mean, Middle Earth was re-envisioned/rebooted/retconned by Peter Jackson for his movies, and that's in some ways supplanted Tolkien's version in the popular conciousness, and no games were involved. So literary worlds aren't quarantined from reboots either.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Middle Earth is a game setting? No, it's been borrowed a few times and a veneer of rules have been struck over the top, but that doesn't make it a game setting. Oerth, Toril, Eberron... they were envisioned as a place to roleplay, and no amount of fiction will ever change that fact.

Middle Earth is a game setting? Yes. Simple as that. The evidence is amply there and easy to come by, whether it happens to be convenient or otherwise for any given argument/stance/bias/preference. No amount of dodgy comparisons (at best) will ever change that fact.

 

[Novem5er]

I tried last night to write a brief description of a new game world that I thought would be relevant to the themes of real life and pop-culture of today.

Unfortunately, everything I was writing has already been done better by Eberron. I know Eberron is supposed to reflect a 1920-30s, pulp adventure, however it seems also very relevant to the world of 2009 with some very minor changes.

The themes that I thought would be relevant to today's gamers included:

• economic upheaval/disparity
• high level of utility magic (communication, travel, information)
• scarcity of magic resources
• diversity
• clash between old civilizations and new ones

All of these themes can be easily played out in an Eberron campaign, and make sense in the context of the world design. So, for me, Eberron is the most thematically relevant campaign setting right now (where relevance is related to the themes gamers relate to in the real world around them).

Comments?

 

[M.L. Martin]

Mythology manages it. AD&D and Greyhawk hew pretty close to mythology (as opposed to contrived stuff). It doesn't take much to grok mythology, because by definition it's already the kind of thing that resonates with new generations, and is as unlikely to lose it's appeal or "relevancy" as the entire fantasy genre is.

I'm pretty sure Rowling ran into D&D at some stage, for instance (a few too many coincidences for that not to be the case IMO), and 13 year olds find hippogriffs kind of cool automatically, given the right context.

More likely she and D&D drew from the same sources, given that Rowling's a classics student (I believe it was her minor or the equivalent at university) who's very well-read in literature and folklore. Or are there things that are D&D-specific that you spotted in HP?

EDIT: To answer the original question: A setting's no longer relevant to fans when they don't want to play in or with it any longer. A setting's no longer relevant to WotC when it can't make a profit or fails to feed its fans back into the D&D Collective fanbase.

 

[rounser]

Or are there things that are D&D-specific that you spotted in HP?

It would be interesting to count the crossovers.

She rips off Tolkien quite obviously (Wormtongue <-> Wormtail) so I don't think she's immune to pop fantasy influences. She also uses Tolkienesque killer trees.

As a collection, merfolk, hippogriffs, giant spiders, centaurs, dragons, elves, wands, potions and magic items make for a very D&D reminiscent array of items.

And then there's what I think could potentially be considered to be the smoking gun. She calls a shapechanging potion "polyjuice potion". Is this a D&Dism? I don't recall seeing shapeshifting referred to as polymorphing anywhere outside of D&D.

 

[Bluenose]

Mythology manages it. AD&D and Greyhawk hew pretty close to mythology (as opposed to contrived stuff). It doesn't take much to grok mythology, because by definition it's already the kind of thing that resonates with new generations, and is as unlikely to lose it's appeal or "relevancy" as the entire fantasy genre is.

I'm pretty sure Rowling ran into D&D at some stage, for instance (a few too many coincidences for that not to be the case IMO), and 13 year olds find hippogriffs kind of cool automatically, given the right context. Mythological resonance is something D&D should have in spades in order to stay relevant, and I think the current implied setting compromises that to an extent.

IMO, nevermind the relevance of Greyhawk, worry about the mythological resonance of the implied setting described by the PHBs. I think they're taking steps backward in this respect.

Some mythology manages it. Most is totally forgotten except for a few specialists, or lost except for fragments, or gets a mention in some other work, or is completely unknown. And D&D has always been perfectly happy to grab bits of mythology from anywhere in the world if it wants it - using the approach the English language takes to vocabulary. Getting it wrong in a lot of cases.

 

[Mallus]

AD&D and Greyhawk hew pretty close to mythology (as opposed to contrived stuff).

Need I remind you of Murlynd again ?