When to put a product on sale?

[jmucchiello]

If the PDF sold 600-800 copies the pay would be the same. To me, the pay is proportionate based upon sales. You could reverse the question and say, "why shouldn't the pay be less if it doesn't generate the income the paper pay rates are based on?" Writing pay is based upon performance, not upon effort.

However, he's the purchaser and that's his right price, regardless of what we think about it.

Joe, most PDFs sell under 100 copies. JBoE has about 210 sales and is 65 ALL-TIME at RPGNow. That's 65 out of 2000 or so products. Until, 600 sales is normal for PDFs, you have to base expected revenue on fewer sales.

Reversing the question means PDFs should have no editing, no spelling correction, etc. After all, if they earn 6-8 times less than print books, you say we should but in 12-16% of the effort. That won't improve sales. From the freelance writer's point of view, it should not matter where the text is going. If you ask for 10,000 words on a d20 topic, the pay rate should not depend on the destination of the material (book or PDF). (This is why I write all of my own stuff. I cannot pay what I would like for writing and make a profit.)

And he can set his personal price points for purchases at any place he'd like. I'm just showing him a reality he may not have considered when he set those price points. Whether he cares what I've said or not is up to him, I'm just putting it out there.

 

[jgbrowning]

Joe, most PDFs sell under 100 copies. JBoE has about 210 sales and is 65 ALL-TIME at RPGNow. That's 65 out of 2000 or so products. Until, 600 sales is normal for PDFs, you have to base expected revenue on fewer sales.

Yes.

Reversing the question means PDFs should have no editing, no spelling correction, etc. After all, if they earn 6-8 times less than print books, you say we should but in 12-16% of the effort. That won't improve sales. From the freelance writer's point of view, it should not matter where the text is going. If you ask for 10,000 words on a d20 topic, the pay rate should not depend on the destination of the material (book or PDF). (This is why I write all of my own stuff. I cannot pay what I would like for writing and make a profit.)

No. If you put in less effort, you'll more than likely get get paid even less. All I'm saying is that you're making comparisons between effort without linking effort to value (profitability). You think a certain amount of effort (RPG writing/editing) has a certain inheirant value and i'm saying the value is dependant upon the profitiability of the end product.

PDFs don't sell like books, so using a pay scale developed for books for the PDF market doesn't make sense. A different pay scale has to be used based upon final profitability. This is done in every business, for example pay rates for newspapers are different than pay rates for magazines which are different than pay rates for novels which are different than pay rates for hardcopy RPG books.

To put it bluntly, PDF writing isn't worth as much as the same writing when it's done for a hardcopy book simply because it doesn't make as much money.

joe b.

 

[jmucchiello]

To put it bluntly, PDF writing isn't worth as much as the same writing when it's done for a hardcopy book simply because it doesn't make as much money.

I'm saying writing is writing. If I pay you for 10,000 words. You should send the same 10,000 words regardless of whether I put those words in a print book, a PDF or just print them on my local printer and never publish them. For you, the work is equal. My expectations about their value has no bearing on the value of your work. The writer's job is to write, not to worry about profitablility. You don't under cut the artist's pay for PDF art vs. print art. (At least I don't.) Why should the writer take a hit? Only the publisher cares about profitability.

 

[jgbrowning]

I'm saying writing is writing. If I pay you for 10,000 words. You should send the same 10,000 words regardless of whether I put those words in a print book, a PDF or just print them on my local printer and never publish them. For you, the work is equal. My expectations about their value has no bearing on the value of your work. The writer's job is to write, not to worry about profitablility. You don't under cut the artist's pay for PDF art vs. print art. (At least I don't.) Why should the writer take a hit? Only the publisher cares about profitability.

That's simply not true, Joe. When you are a freelance writer the "value" of the words is what the publisher will pay you for them and the publisher's decision is based solely upon the amount of money it makes for the publisher.

There is no monatary "value" for words outside of that equation. The expected value you're talking about is based upon the value of printed RPG material, not PDF RPG material. Because the PDF market is not as profitable, the payment for words will be less as well.

If a publisher pays the book value and only releases the words as a PDF, he'll go under. That is not a viable business model, so the expectation that words for a PDF should be paid as if they were for a physical book is not viable either. The same is true for art.

PDFs don't make as much, so you can't pay as much to get them made. The best solution is what you've done. People who write/edit/design for themselves can make money via PDF, but the standard production costs associated with RPG books are not very profitable in the PDF market, if profitable at all.

And of course, if the price is too low, the writer doesn't have to write for that much if they don't want to. Same thing with the artist. It doesn't matter that they're doing the same amount or quality of work, because the work has no value outside of the profitability of the end product for the publisher. Telling any writer or artist that their words or art has monetary value outside this consideration is giving them an improper sense of the value of their work.

I'm not undercutting the artist nor the writer's pay because the concept of "work" is not fixed. I'm saying its a different market. And I'm saying the writer should "take a hit" because his work isn't worth as much in the PDF format as it is worth in the print format.

Another example (though a bit silly) is mining. I'm not going to pay a person the same amount to dig ditches as I'm going to pay them to mine for gold. The actions may be the same, digging, but the profitability of the same action is different and it is only the profitability of the end result that assigns a value to the work done in achieving the end result.

That's why PDF work pays less than print work. The end result is less valuable. And the writer and artist shouldn't feel bad about it. PDF work pays just as less for the publisher as well.

joe b.

 

[Morrus]

IMO $2.50 is the right price for a 50 page PDF. If it was a print product that would translate to about $10. ($2.50 for publisher; $2.50 for printing, etc; $5.00 markup for FLGS). But I am also on a tight budget and can't spend a lot for games these days.

Actually, I disagree, but not for the reasons people have cited above.

$2.50 works fine for a sale, but if a 50 page PDF is sold at a regular price of $2.50, it sells less copies. Sounds weird, but that's how it is - the perceived "quality" of a product is linked in the customer's eyes to its price. A cheaper product is - wrongly, of course - perceived as a lesser product. I guess that could be alleviated with clever marketing, but I haven't tried it.

There are boundaries to this, of course - selling a PDF for $6, $7, $8, even $9 has no effect on sales; increasing it into the double-digit range then starts to reduce sales, as that *is* perceived as too much for anything but the most exceptional of PDFs. Dropping it below $5 starts to reduce sales too, unless it is a *sale*.

[Hope the two different uses of the word "sale" didn't get too confusing there!]

 

[jmucchiello]

If a publisher pays the book value and only releases the words as a PDF, he'll go under. That is not a viable business model, so the expectation that words for a PDF should be paid as if they were for a physical book is not viable either. The same is true for art.

That's not the writer's problem. If you want me to write words, you pay my rate or I don't write (unless there's some other incentive at play). The contract between writer and publisher is to buy words. What the publisher does with the words is his concern, not the freelance writer's concern.

If we were discussing a manufactured product, you wouldn't be arguing that suppliers should receive less money for raw materials because we manufacture products in a market that values their materials less. The supplier would laugh at such a notion.

As for not being a viable business model, there are PDF publishers that always pay market rate for writing. So it must work for some publishers.

 

[jgbrowning]

That's not the writer's problem. If you want me to write words, you pay my rate or I don't write (unless there's some other incentive at play). The contract between writer and publisher is to buy words. What the publisher does with the words is his concern, not the freelance writer's concern.

Actually, it is the writers problem. If he expects me to choose to pay him the same while I'm making less for my effort, I'm not going to hire him.

Again, I simply don't think you're understanding me. The value of the writers words is solely based upon how much money those words can make on the market. Words that make $5 are not as vauable as words that make $500, even if they are exactly the same words. The value is not based upon the effort required to make the product, it is based upon how much money can be made off that effort.

I mean, you're not suggesting that a publisher shouldn't pay J.K. Rowling more than me for my fantasy novel, right, even if we used the same words? Her value is based upon how much she sells, not the quality nor effort involved. I think that's an important distiction to make. When I say "value" i mean "profitability." The more profitability a product has the more "valuable" it is. I'm not talking esthetics or anything here, I'm talking business.

Of course, the writer never writes for what he thinks isn't worth it, just as the publisher never pays for what he thinks isn't worth it. That's the same in every business.

If we were discussing a manufactured product, you wouldn't be arguing that suppliers should receive less money for raw materials because we manufacture products in a market that values their materials less. The supplier would laugh at such a notion.

Happens all the time in manufacturing as well. Example 1: I build houses. If i buy all my supplies from one company, they'll let me pay them less for the exact same product than they'll charge to some guy who only ocassionlly buys things from them. I'm paying them less for the same amount of work because their return is more overall. Example 2: International trade. Suppliers get paid less for the same matrial in different countries all the time. The same product produced in the USA and then bought by someone in canada who then sells it to the canadian public will cost slightly less than the american who buys it and then sells it to americans. One of the reasons for this is the change in market. Medicine is a big example, even outside any form of governmental assistance by the individual countries. From personal experience, getting american made medicine in India through a private doctor is much cheeper (I payed $10 for a $75 treatment of Cipro.) The manufactorer gets paid different amounts for their work depending on which market they sell their product. Theoretically it would be something like this: Cipro sells to hospitals and pharmacies for $40 in america, $38 in canada, $15 in mexico, and $5 in India.

The real value of any product is based upon the amount of money generated by that product when it sells minus expenses to make it. Just because RPG writers are used to getting 3 cents a word in one market doesn't mean they should expect that in another.

As for not being a viable business model, there are PDF publishers that always pay market rate for writing. So it must work for some publishers.

To that I have to ask, how much are they paying themselves? Are the publishers then the ones that are expected to get paid less for their same efforts, even though they pay the artist and the writer the same? How unfair of the writers and artists to expect me to pay myself less when they won't do it themselves. If I'm going to put out a PDF and do almost the same amount of work it takes to put out a print product I should, by your reckoning, be paid the same as if I was putting out a print product.

Of course, I won't get paid the same, because I won't sell as much. Why do you expect the publisher to accept less pay for the same amount of work when you refuse to expect the writers and artists to do the same?

Somebody's not making the same amount of money for the same amount of effort because the PDF market simply won't bear it. I'm saying that difference should be spread out, rather than solely born by the publisher.

joe b.

 

[afstanton]

Actually, it is the writers problem. If he expects me to choose to pay him the same while I'm making less for my effort, I'm not going to hire him.

Again, I simply don't think you're understanding me. The value of the writers words is solely based upon how much money those words can make on the market. Words that make $5 are not as vauable as words that make $500, even if they are exactly the same words. The value is not based upon the effort required to make the product, it is based upon how much money can be made off that effort.

I mean, you're not suggesting that a publisher shouldn't pay J.K. Rowling more than me for my fantasy novel, right, even if we used the same words? Her value is based upon how much she sells, not the quality nor effort involved. I think that's an important distiction to make. When I say "value" i mean "profitability." The more profitability a product has the more "valuable" it is. I'm not talking esthetics or anything here, I'm talking business.

Of course, the writer never writes for what he thinks isn't worth it, just as the publisher never pays for what he thinks isn't worth it. That's the same in every business.



Happens all the time in manufacturing as well. Example 1: I build houses. If i buy all my supplies from one company, they'll let me pay them less for the exact same product than they'll charge to some guy who only ocassionlly buys things from them. I'm paying them less for the same amount of work because their return is more overall. Example 2: International trade. Suppliers get paid less for the same matrial in different countries all the time. The same product produced in the USA and then bought by someone in canada who then sells it to the canadian public will cost slightly less than the american who buys it and then sells it to americans. One of the reasons for this is the change in market. Medicine is a big example, even outside any form of governmental assistance by the individual countries. From personal experience, getting american made medicine in India through a private doctor is much cheeper (I payed $10 for a $75 treatment of Cipro.) The manufactorer gets paid different amounts for their work depending on which market they sell their product. Theoretically it would be something like this: Cipro sells to hospitals and pharmacies for $40 in america, $38 in canada, $15 in mexico, and $5 in India.

The real value of any product is based upon the amount of money generated by that product when it sells minus expenses to make it. Just because RPG writers are used to getting 3 cents a word in one market doesn't mean they should expect that in another.



To that I have to ask, how much are they paying themselves? Are the publishers then the ones that are expected to get paid less for their same efforts, even though they pay the artist and the writer the same? How unfair of the writers and artists to expect me to pay myself less when they won't do it themselves. If I'm going to put out a PDF and do almost the same amount of work it takes to put out a print product I should, by your reckoning, be paid the same as if I was putting out a print product.

Of course, I won't get paid the same, because I won't sell as much. Why do you expect the publisher to accept less pay for the same amount of work when you refuse to expect the writers and artists to do the same?

Somebody's not making the same amount of money for the same amount of effort because the PDF market simply won't bear it. I'm saying that difference should be spread out, rather than solely born by the publisher.

joe b.

You know, it strikes me that a lot of this debate is based on the assumption that the author in question is being paid a flat fee per word. That's not always the case - some authors are paid a royalty, some are paid an advance on a royalty, some get both flat fee plus royalty, and on and on and on.

I don't think it's as simple as the situation being presented. It certainly could be possible to set up a fee schedule that both guarantees the author some minimum payment (placing some responsibility on the publisher to recover that investment in the work the author has done) and a percentage of sales (giving the author incentive to do some quality work). If the publisher is planning on pdf publications with the option of hardcopy later, they could set the flat fee pretty low.

Heck, if you really wanted to complicate matters, you could treat it much the same way as artwork frequently is done, where the publisher is buying first rights to something - pay a low fee for the right to release an electronic version with the option to pay a higher fee for hardcopy rights.

Any combination of these tools can be used. It just takes a little creativity to equitably manage the risk/reward ratio for all concerned. I personally would avoid making it too messy.

Aaron

 

[jgbrowning]

You know, it strikes me that a lot of this debate is based on the assumption that the author in question is being paid a flat fee per word. That's not always the case - some authors are paid a royalty, some are paid an advance on a royalty, some get both flat fee plus royalty, and on and on and on.

I don't think it's as simple as the situation being presented. It certainly could be possible to set up a fee schedule that both guarantees the author some minimum payment (placing some responsibility on the publisher to recover that investment in the work the author has done) and a percentage of sales (giving the author incentive to do some quality work). If the publisher is planning on pdf publications with the option of hardcopy later, they could set the flat fee pretty low.

Aaron

Which is something I've been thinking about. Basically an upfront fee, then a % of sales for 2 months, and then a closing fee. This gives the author instant cash up front, two months of income and then more cash at the end. This gives the publishers less outlay up front, only two months of bookeeping, and then the final payment to end the bookeeping and assess profitability.

I don't know how well this would work because the end result is still going to be less than the print 3 cents a word no matter what. I simply don't think that pay scale can be maintained because it's based upon a more profitable market.

joe b.

 

[Swiftbrook]

Most PDFs sell under 100 copies.

Actually, I disagree, but not for the reasons people have cited above.

$2.50 works fine for a sale, but if a 50 page PDF is sold at a regular price of $2.50, it sells less copies. Sounds weird, but that's how it is - the perceived "quality" of a product is linked in the customer's eyes to its price. A cheaper product is - wrongly, of course - perceived as a lesser product. I guess that could be alleviated with clever marketing, but I haven't tried it.

There are boundaries to this, of course - selling a PDF for $6, $7, $8, even $9 has no effect on sales; increasing it into the double-digit range then starts to reduce sales, as that *is* perceived as too much for anything but the most exceptional of PDFs. Dropping it below $5 starts to reduce sales too, unless it is a *sale*.

[Hope the two different uses of the word "sale" didn't get too confusing there!]

I don't know who's right between afstanton and jgbrowning. Perhaps both in many ways. What gets me is that a PDF typically sells less than 100 copies. I am not doubting your numbers -- it's just eye opening. I've created a few want-a-be published items and I know how much time I put into them. You guys (or gals) are nuts, or terrificially talented, creative and fast writers. I can't imagine putting in so many hours for so little of a return as a means of employment.

$5.00 is not an unfair price for a 50 or so page PDF product. I just can't afford purchasing many these days (or for that matter, purchasing print products either). I'm surprised that when the price goes up towards $9.00 that the amount of sales doesn't really change.

It seems that gamers in generally don't know that PDFs exist. Less than 100 PDF sales per title -- out of all the gamers in the world (???????).

Can someone give me a point of reference: How many 3.0 PHB were sold by WotC? That should be a good representation of the number of d20 gamers out there, or at least it a starting point.

All that said, it seems the need is to get gamers to know that PDFs are available. I hope you Polyhedron PDF sales pitch works.

-Swiftbrook