When will PDFs be over?

[DragonBelow]

Where it fails is in those areas where precise format and pagination are less important than content and text flow. For example, reading on a small screen -- such as an iPhone or deliberately small GUI window. For this, a hyperlinked, searchable format that will dynamically re-flow is ideal.

Such formats exist. So, again, why have PDFs become the de facto standard?

I think it was an early assumption that most people wanted the PDF to print them, PDF are pretty good for this. Think about when PDFs started, not when reading devices became common

I think the problem is not with the file format, but with the format provided by the publisher, for example RPGObjects provides PDFs for printing and for screen reading both in PDFs, and both work very well for their intended purposes,

 

[jdrakeh]

I'm a little confused... what makes you couldn't do any of the above if each book came in another format?

Um. . . another widely accessible format that readily supports production quality book printing doesn't currently exist? The most common formats for distributing hyperlinked, re-flowing, text documentation (HTML or PHP) don't even come close.

As Biggus mentioned earlier, that's kind of a big deal. Most consumers who buy PDFs want their purchase to look good as well as be functional, and PDF provides both of these things (provided that a publisher takes time to use bookmarks and such).

Things like HTML and PHP give you only one of those things (i.e., functionality). People don't want to pay much for something that looks like ass, especially if they have plans to print it. Some people will make that sacrifice. I don't think that the majority of consumers will.

If you invent a new file format that makes possible the things that PDF does, distribute it freely across multiple platforms, and get a few dozen software providers to create programs that utlize it, then we can talk. Until then, PDF is simply the best thing going, I'm afraid.

 

[Kristian Serrano]

My issues with PDFs are as follows:

• I print (some) PDFs only because I can't view them well enough or easily enough on a handheld device, and there is not handheld device designed to handle PDFs well enough. It seems the ideal solution would be to have a netbook (preferable touchscreen) that displays in portrait mode.
• Not all PDFs are cheaper than print copy *glaring at WotC*
• By default, PDFs (and/or Adobe Reader) do not allow the consumer to create custom bookmarks and comments/notes. Yes, the publisher can enable this, but I believe it still requires the standard version of Acrobat.
• I cannot append pages of custom written material or web enhancements.
• If I buy a print book, I can write in it, bookmark it, add sticky notes, and insert a printed copy of additional material. As a consumer, I should have the right to do that with an electronic copy without having to spend $200 on software and/or needing permission from the publisher.

I have used PDFs in the past to review a lowcost copy of the book and then buy a print copy if I use it enough, but to reiterate my point above, I wouldn't feel the need to have a print copy if handhelds could handle them better and if I were able to bookmark and annotate my PDFs freely.

Heck, I've even purchased PDFs that didn't allow the content to be indexed by desktop searh utilities, which I depend on to find content on my computer.

Seriously, as nice as a PDF can be, the limitations Adobe and some publishers put on them really piss me off!

 

[Kristian Serrano]

Hmmm... After my rant, I did a search for portable PDF readers and stumbled across Foxit. Foxit allows me to annotate and add my own bookmarks. It's also a LOT faster than Adobe Reader.

Now if only they created a version for handhelds. Oh, wait...
Foxit Software

I'm testing this out when I get home tonight.

 

[jdrakeh]

Hmmm... After my rant, I did a search for portable PDF readers and stumbled across Foxit. Foxit allows me to annotate and add my own bookmarks. It's also a LOT faster than Adobe Reader.

Now if only they created a version for handhelds. Oh, wait...
Foxit Software

I'm testing this out when I get home tonight.

Foxit (as I mention earlier) is great. It's certainly better (i.e., more functional)on handhelds than Acrobat of any flavor is. Another great PDF utility is GSView. Though it has no handheld version yet, it's perfect for extracting and reflowing text from PDFs into other document formats.

Programs like GSView are probably the number one reason that commercial PDFs aren't going to be dumped in favor of commercial HTML/PHP/TXT/RTF distribution. You can make your own HTML/PHP/TXT/RTF file from 99% of all available commerical PDFs in a minute or two (either by copying and pasting text in Acrobat Reader or via freeware like GSView).

Why would any publisher drop the most widely used document format in publishing today in order to implement a format with significantly less consumer appeal and that any consumer can implement themselves given five minutes alone with a mouse and the copy/paste function of their OS (or one of dozens of freeware applications)?

[Edit: Incidentally, it seems that most of your complaints with PDFs (e.g., high prices, locked editing features, etc) are actually with PDF publishers, as opposed to the document format itself ]

 

[starwed]

Why would any publisher drop the most widely used document format in publishing today in order to implement a format with significantly less consumer appeal and that any consumer can implement themselves given five minutes alone with a mouse and the copy/paste function of their OS (or one of dozens of freeware applications)?

What's up with the false dichotomy here? No one is asking for publishers to deny you your pdfs.

They could give you multiple formats when you buy a digital text. As you say, it's somewhat easy for a consumer to convert between pdf and some other format. It's even easier for the publisher, who has the original source, to produce whatever format is desired.

 

[jdrakeh]

What's up with the false dichotomy here? No one is asking for publishers to deny you your pdfs.

Go back and read the title of this thread and the original post in its entirety. Jeff doesn't want an alternative to PDFs — he wants PDFs to be "over" (i.e., go away). Sure, not everybody has taken this position on the thread, but the OP most certainly did.

The OP's assertions that PDFs are no longer practical or useful and in need of replacement are what I'm addressing. Multiple formats are fine. That's not what the OP was arguing for. He just wants PDFs to go away because he doesn't like them.

Frankly, that's not a realistic expectation for reasons already given by myself and others on this thread (including some publishers).

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

What's up with the false dichotomy here? No one is asking for publishers to deny you your pdfs.

They could give you multiple formats when you buy a digital text. As you say, it's somewhat easy for a consumer to convert between pdf and some other format. It's even easier for the publisher, who has the original source, to produce whatever format is desired.

It's not that easy. Sure, you could probably convert a serviceable file from a PDF. But serviceable isn't the same as good.

For example, last month I created a Kindle ebook version of the Savage Worlds PDF. I could read most of the text reasonably well... but all the tables were almost unreadable, and in the case of some pages, text from the left and right column on a single page ended up all mixed together. And boxed texts didn't fit in with the page flow as well.

All these can be fixed with enough effort. But one has to ask: Is this effort worth the while of a competent layouter/editor? Especially since the market for non-PDF ebooks is so small, and splintered up between different file formats?

I mean, I'm strongly interested in such ebooks myself. But whenever I've offered various gaming-related free ebooks for download, the actual interest has been pretty much zero, so I'm not very optimistic in that regard. And if there is no interest in free gaming ebooks, then is there really going to be any interest in commercial ebooks in these formats?

 

[jdrakeh]

It's not that easy. Sure, you could probably convert a serviceable file from a PDF. But serviceable isn't the same as good.

Also this. While it seems that a few people here would be willing to pay for a linked, no-frills, text rip to .rtf, .php, .html, etc — I think the idea that most people would be satisifed with such a product is preposterous.

If this were true, I don't think that there would have been a market for PDFs to begin with. Likewise, if this were true, why did PDF become the dominant file format in the industry?

There is lots of evidence to suggest that dropping PDFs completely to pursue older, less aesthetically pleasing, file formats as commercial products is a bad idea.

 

[Kristian Serrano]

Also this. While it seems that a few people here would be willing to pay for a linked, no-frills, text rip to .rtf, .php, .html, etc — I think the idea that most people would be satisifed with such a product is preposterous.

If this were true, I don't think that there would have been a market for PDFs to begin with. Likewise, if this were true, why did PDF become the dominant file format in the industry?

There is lots of evidence to suggest that dropping PDFs completely to pursue older, less aesthetically pleasing, file formats as commercial products is a bad idea.

Do you know how easy it is to create a PDF from Adobe InDesign? If you've already done your layout for the print product in InDesign, why wouldn't you simply save it as a PDF, set the permissions in the file in the process, and stick it on an ecommerce service/site?