When would stat bumps warrant a CR increase?
- Thread starter Stalker0
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Infiniti2000
First Post
The assumption is that any creature that advances by PC class levels uses the elite array (25-pt buy). There's no guideline for using a higher value. If I had to choose one, though, I'd tend to say that maybe 32-pt buy is +1 CR. If you use the elite array for a monster that does not normally use the elite array, then add +1 CR, +2 CR if 32-pt buy. I'd also consider increasing CR by +1 if you use 28-pt buy and add a little more treasure than normal.
Gut-feeling is important.
Gut-feeling is important.
It's probably also worth taking a look if the stat increase builds on the creature's strengths. If you have a creature that relies on melee combat, a +4 Str and +4 Con will certainly raise the CR by as much as +2 depending on HD. On the other hand a +4 Wis for a divine caster could grant a couple of extra spells, higher save DCs, etc. that might also be valuable and warrant a +1 CR, particularly if the average save in the party is poor or the average AC is the party is poor for the strength brute. It's important to compare what you're doing with what the creature is and the party that it's facing.
Pinotage
Pinotage
Voadam
Legend
From the SRD:
Monster’s ability scores based on elite array* +1 to CR
* Do not apply this increase if you advance a monster by class levels. (Monsters advanced by class levels are assumed to use the elite array.)
ABILITY SCORE ARRAYS
Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses. However, improved monsters are individuals and often have better than normal ability scores, and usually make use of either the elite array or the nonelite array of ability scores. Monsters who improve by adding a template, and monsters who improve by increasing their Hit Dice, may use any of the three arrays (standard, nonelite, or elite). Any monster unique enough to be improved could easily be considered elite.
Elite Array: The elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. While the monster has one weakness compared to a typical member of its race, it is significantly better overall. The elite array is most appropriate for monsters who add levels in a player character class.
Nonelite Array: The nonelite array is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. The nonelite array does not necessarily make a monster better than normal, but it does customize the monster as an individual with strengths and weaknesses compared to a typical member of its race. The nonelite array is most appropriate for monsters who add class levels in a NPC class.
Monster’s ability scores based on elite array* +1 to CR
* Do not apply this increase if you advance a monster by class levels. (Monsters advanced by class levels are assumed to use the elite array.)
ABILITY SCORE ARRAYS
Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses. However, improved monsters are individuals and often have better than normal ability scores, and usually make use of either the elite array or the nonelite array of ability scores. Monsters who improve by adding a template, and monsters who improve by increasing their Hit Dice, may use any of the three arrays (standard, nonelite, or elite). Any monster unique enough to be improved could easily be considered elite.
Elite Array: The elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. While the monster has one weakness compared to a typical member of its race, it is significantly better overall. The elite array is most appropriate for monsters who add levels in a player character class.
Nonelite Array: The nonelite array is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. The nonelite array does not necessarily make a monster better than normal, but it does customize the monster as an individual with strengths and weaknesses compared to a typical member of its race. The nonelite array is most appropriate for monsters who add class levels in a NPC class.
frankthedm
First Post
The 'Elite' array was based on the assumtion the PCs as well used 25 point buy or had scores close to that derived from the 4d6 drop lowest. Now if your PCs have better scores than that, the elite array for the game should be higher as well.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
I usually try to give my NPCs the same ability array as my players, because I don't want the hassle of recalculating the CR.
In some cases though, I believe you can add points without screwing the balance.
As an example, a Fighter NPC - you will not screw the balance if you give him extra points of charisma or intelligence, since none of his strength or weaknesses really are based on that, especially if you would be able to pay for Int13 anyway.
These high ability scores then can be used to augment his background (why is he the great leader of the army? Obviously because he is very charismatic and spend his extra skill points on cross class skills like diplomacy or sense motive...)
Once you begin to augment the "combat scores" for the monster or NPC, you will have to reconsider the CR.
In some cases though, I believe you can add points without screwing the balance.
As an example, a Fighter NPC - you will not screw the balance if you give him extra points of charisma or intelligence, since none of his strength or weaknesses really are based on that, especially if you would be able to pay for Int13 anyway.
These high ability scores then can be used to augment his background (why is he the great leader of the army? Obviously because he is very charismatic and spend his extra skill points on cross class skills like diplomacy or sense motive...)
Once you begin to augment the "combat scores" for the monster or NPC, you will have to reconsider the CR.
Exactly!Mustrum_Ridcully said:
I like to use the elite array for all my NPCs, but sometimes I have to bump up a few scores.
One encounter was a showdown with the hobgoblin king. I obviously wanted to put his best scores in strength, dexterity and constitution so as to be a reasonable challenge to the players, but that would leave me with an 8,10 and 12 to spread around his mental stats.
Since kingship among the hobgoblins was neither heriditary nor based solely on physical strength, I couldn't see anyone with such low mental abilities being able to become king. I increased his mental stats so they were all 12s. Assuming I would have put the 12 in wisdom anyway, all it really did was give him a couple more ranks in diplomacy and intimidation.
