eriktheguy
First Post
Depends on which Monster Manual you use. MM1 solos have high HP/defenses and less damage. MM2 solos have lower HP/defenses and more damage. If your facing an MM1 solo, its probably best to take out the underlings first.
When you kill your monsters do you kill the boss one last?
- Thread starter ferratus
- Start date
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
It really depends. If the boss is making a massive change to how the encounter plays, it's probably worth taking him out first. Examples of this kind of boss are: bosses that boost other creatures, bosses that deal large amounts of damage, bosses that heal things and bosses who are on the verge of completing their "destroy the world" ritual (or whatever other macguffin there is).
Often terrain can negate the advantages that a boss may have: for instance in the infamous kobold cave, the sheer number of minions and restricted lines of fire meant that, for us, the boss couldn't actually engage us until almost everything else was dead. We actually left minions alive in order to keep things stopped up behind them and unable to effectively fight.
Conversely, we just finished an encounter where the boss was giving out a standard action to all the other monsters by spending a standard action of their own: we ended up burning down the boss as quickly as possible.
Often terrain can negate the advantages that a boss may have: for instance in the infamous kobold cave, the sheer number of minions and restricted lines of fire meant that, for us, the boss couldn't actually engage us until almost everything else was dead. We actually left minions alive in order to keep things stopped up behind them and unable to effectively fight.
Conversely, we just finished an encounter where the boss was giving out a standard action to all the other monsters by spending a standard action of their own: we ended up burning down the boss as quickly as possible.
cignus_pfaccari
First Post
Everything I know in life, I learned from playing Shadowrun.
In regards to this, I follow the maxim, "Geek the mage first."
This translates, basically, as "prioritize the target that is doing the most harm to you that will take the least effort to put down."
While this typically means caster types, it's not always. Pretty much we target and FF whatever's most annoying at the time. As the first few rounds unfold, this may change significantly based on revealed abilities.
"Hey, that derro savant cast Evard's Zone of Hentai Tentacles! Get'em, Ray!"
Brad
In regards to this, I follow the maxim, "Geek the mage first."
This translates, basically, as "prioritize the target that is doing the most harm to you that will take the least effort to put down."
While this typically means caster types, it's not always. Pretty much we target and FF whatever's most annoying at the time. As the first few rounds unfold, this may change significantly based on revealed abilities.
"Hey, that derro savant cast Evard's Zone of Hentai Tentacles! Get'em, Ray!"
Brad
So we just had a big fight last night with a clearly defined leader. Early on we focused on the most threatening. . .threat. Kinda. An ogre was nose to nose with our swordmage, and much of our attack strength was bent towards killing him, but there were two other ogres, and wolves, and spirit companions, and then one flying, casting leader.
After the first ogre died, there was some multiattacking of wolves and some chaos with our ranged attackers getting beat on. . .but overall, we did pretty well holding things together. The boss was the second to last enemy we killed (technically, the last ogre got away. Technically) but I'd say that was mostly because she was out of reach much of the fight. Once she touched down and turned into her hideous melee form, it was a free for all.
Jay
After the first ogre died, there was some multiattacking of wolves and some chaos with our ranged attackers getting beat on. . .but overall, we did pretty well holding things together. The boss was the second to last enemy we killed (technically, the last ogre got away. Technically) but I'd say that was mostly because she was out of reach much of the fight. Once she touched down and turned into her hideous melee form, it was a free for all.
Jay
Iron Sky
Procedurally Generated
In the game I'm playing in (just hit 18th level), we have pretty good teamwork.
General tactics:
*Paladin finds and locks-down the most powerful baddie.
*Rogue throws his Cloud of Daggers to hit as many enemies as possible, then flanks and dazes/stuns/initaties murderizing whatever the Paladin is targeting.
*Cleric gets to the center and throws out AoEs to take out minions/clumps of enemies and heals anyone who goes bloodied.
*Ranger chases down non-minion, non-boss enemies and takes them out one-by-one. Once all are gone, turn to help finish the boss.
*Warlock assists helps cleric with any minions, then assists the Ranger from a distance.
Some fights will cause this to change (lack of mobility, no clear "dominant" enemy, etc). Generally, the Paladin and Rogue work together and the Ranger and Warlock work together while the Cleric keeps everyone on their feet.
In the game I'm running (currently on hiatus, to resume in a few months), the party just hit 11, starting from level 3. In those 8 levels, there were 7 PC deaths, so their group composition keeps changing and, with it, the group's tactics. Only about level 7-8 or so when the party nearly TPK'd and the Swordmage was replaced by a Warden and the Pacifist Cleric became non-Pacifist did the party start to solidify tactics and greatly enhance their survivability (only 1 death in the 3 levels after the near-TPK!).
General Tactics:
*Warden gets close to the largest group of enemies possible and locks them down.
*Barbarian charges around, hitting anything that looks chargable.
*Assassin follows in the Barbarian's wake, finishing off anything that the Barbarian didn't manage to kill in one round.
*Cleric tries to stay in the middle and toss heals around.
*Sorcerer takes out minions, then focuses on enemy artillery, if possible.
There were a few exceptions, such as when they were travelling down the hollowed-out core of a massive fallen tree in the Feywild and stumbled into a mix of ettercaps and spiders. The Warden, Barbarian, and Assassin charged ahead into a nest of spiders where they were immobilized by webbing while a couple swarms and lurkers came out from behind and began hammering the Cleric and Sorcerer.
The Sorcerer and Cleric went down once or twice each before the melee front-line could fight their way back to help.
When I run my game, I tend to make fights as dynamic as possible - lurkers/"adds" that join mid fight from another direction, enemies scattered around the map in various hard-to-reach areas forcing the party to split their focus, lower-level solos mixed with elites so it's hard to tell who the "real" boss is, etc. Keeps the party on their toes and makes them revise their tactics frequently and on-the-fly.
General tactics:
*Paladin finds and locks-down the most powerful baddie.
*Rogue throws his Cloud of Daggers to hit as many enemies as possible, then flanks and dazes/stuns/initaties murderizing whatever the Paladin is targeting.
*Cleric gets to the center and throws out AoEs to take out minions/clumps of enemies and heals anyone who goes bloodied.
*Ranger chases down non-minion, non-boss enemies and takes them out one-by-one. Once all are gone, turn to help finish the boss.
*Warlock assists helps cleric with any minions, then assists the Ranger from a distance.
Some fights will cause this to change (lack of mobility, no clear "dominant" enemy, etc). Generally, the Paladin and Rogue work together and the Ranger and Warlock work together while the Cleric keeps everyone on their feet.
In the game I'm running (currently on hiatus, to resume in a few months), the party just hit 11, starting from level 3. In those 8 levels, there were 7 PC deaths, so their group composition keeps changing and, with it, the group's tactics. Only about level 7-8 or so when the party nearly TPK'd and the Swordmage was replaced by a Warden and the Pacifist Cleric became non-Pacifist did the party start to solidify tactics and greatly enhance their survivability (only 1 death in the 3 levels after the near-TPK!).
General Tactics:
*Warden gets close to the largest group of enemies possible and locks them down.
*Barbarian charges around, hitting anything that looks chargable.
*Assassin follows in the Barbarian's wake, finishing off anything that the Barbarian didn't manage to kill in one round.
*Cleric tries to stay in the middle and toss heals around.
*Sorcerer takes out minions, then focuses on enemy artillery, if possible.
There were a few exceptions, such as when they were travelling down the hollowed-out core of a massive fallen tree in the Feywild and stumbled into a mix of ettercaps and spiders. The Warden, Barbarian, and Assassin charged ahead into a nest of spiders where they were immobilized by webbing while a couple swarms and lurkers came out from behind and began hammering the Cleric and Sorcerer.
The Sorcerer and Cleric went down once or twice each before the melee front-line could fight their way back to help.
When I run my game, I tend to make fights as dynamic as possible - lurkers/"adds" that join mid fight from another direction, enemies scattered around the map in various hard-to-reach areas forcing the party to split their focus, lower-level solos mixed with elites so it's hard to tell who the "real" boss is, etc. Keeps the party on their toes and makes them revise their tactics frequently and on-the-fly.
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My players started out with the old school, "everyone attack whatever you want." I.E. no tactical thinking at all. This lead to a lot of tough fights and their eventual capture, being stripped of all goods and sold to slavers. [Friendly NPC's intercepted the shipment and freed them]
So they finally realized, as the NPC's are focus fireing, that it was working for the bad guys. So now the first round they typically AOE fire to clear out swaths of minions. Then they focus fire on one or two of the standards left while one person continues to deal with minions, the artificer buffs up their attack rolls, the avenger buffs up damage and they maneuver for combat advantage.
This has lead them to realize the 'boss' of each encounter [I typically have a boss/leader type for humanoid based encounters] isn't stupid enough to stay and die conveniently. As in the boss and one or two trusted LT's/Bodyguards flees the fight when it's obvious that they're going to die.
This as of the last session has lead them to realize they're missing out on all that phat lewt the bosses have been carrying away with him. Now they're scrambling looking for ways/methods/items that will let them lock the battlefield down a little better and keep that loot from running away.
It's been fun for both sides.
So they finally realized, as the NPC's are focus fireing, that it was working for the bad guys. So now the first round they typically AOE fire to clear out swaths of minions. Then they focus fire on one or two of the standards left while one person continues to deal with minions, the artificer buffs up their attack rolls, the avenger buffs up damage and they maneuver for combat advantage.
This has lead them to realize the 'boss' of each encounter [I typically have a boss/leader type for humanoid based encounters] isn't stupid enough to stay and die conveniently. As in the boss and one or two trusted LT's/Bodyguards flees the fight when it's obvious that they're going to die.
This as of the last session has lead them to realize they're missing out on all that phat lewt the bosses have been carrying away with him. Now they're scrambling looking for ways/methods/items that will let them lock the battlefield down a little better and keep that loot from running away.
It's been fun for both sides.
surfarcher
First Post
Sounds like you guys are having fun 
You could introduce the odd runner now so they learn something new again. You see the "mini-boss" escaping can be a very Bad Thing. Because they raise the alert and make for some Very Tough fights
Fun fun fun! I love it!
You could introduce the odd runner now so they learn something new again. You see the "mini-boss" escaping can be a very Bad Thing. Because they raise the alert and make for some Very Tough fights
Fun fun fun! I love it!
I was pondering that very question earlier tonight when I was desiging a major upcoming encounter. Usually my group takes out the supporting monsters first, then all piles on the boss at the end, but I try to design encounters that occasionally shake things up.
The encounter consists of an n+2 elite Bravura Warlord (controller) - the "boss", an n+1 elite elven archer (artillery/skirmisher), and some underlevel n-2 brute goons, giving an xp budget of n+2 overall. There will be six players and they will be pitted against the two elites and the 4 goons.
The archer does the most damage by far, but he'll be in the back, highly mobile, and hard to pin down, he's also elite so he'll have a lot of hp. The Bravura will have the most hp, and will be doing bravura style attacks that invite attack. He'll also be constantly giving the goons temp hp and doing some heals.
The goons are basic brutes, but they get attack bonuses that trigger based on their bravura boss getting attacked. They also have some pull/grab stuff that can shuffle the party around.
So what will the party do? They can beat down the goons, but that will be inneficient as the goons will be getting temp hp every round or every other round, plus heals. And if they leave the archer alone he will cause some serious damage.
They can beat on the boss, but doing so invigorates the goons, and the boss has the highest hp and defenses.
They can beat on the archer, but they have to catch him, deal with goons pulling them away and springing the archer, and the boss healing the archer.
I'm not sure what they'll do... very interested to find out! Also, I'm going to have a brief narrative while they watch this npc group take down another npc group, so they'll be going in the fight with a rough idea of their capabilities.
The encounter consists of an n+2 elite Bravura Warlord (controller) - the "boss", an n+1 elite elven archer (artillery/skirmisher), and some underlevel n-2 brute goons, giving an xp budget of n+2 overall. There will be six players and they will be pitted against the two elites and the 4 goons.
The archer does the most damage by far, but he'll be in the back, highly mobile, and hard to pin down, he's also elite so he'll have a lot of hp. The Bravura will have the most hp, and will be doing bravura style attacks that invite attack. He'll also be constantly giving the goons temp hp and doing some heals.
The goons are basic brutes, but they get attack bonuses that trigger based on their bravura boss getting attacked. They also have some pull/grab stuff that can shuffle the party around.
So what will the party do? They can beat down the goons, but that will be inneficient as the goons will be getting temp hp every round or every other round, plus heals. And if they leave the archer alone he will cause some serious damage.
They can beat on the boss, but doing so invigorates the goons, and the boss has the highest hp and defenses.
They can beat on the archer, but they have to catch him, deal with goons pulling them away and springing the archer, and the boss healing the archer.
I'm not sure what they'll do... very interested to find out! Also, I'm going to have a brief narrative while they watch this npc group take down another npc group, so they'll be going in the fight with a rough idea of their capabilities.
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