When's "Tears of the Burning Sky" Coming?

[EugeneZ]

I get this sinking feeling that EnWorld isn't making enough money off the 4e conversion or something. If you chart EnWorld release dates for 4e on a graph, there is a linear progression towards longer and longer intervals between releases. Monastery took three months. Next weekend will be the three-month point for Tears. Considering EnWorld says releases will come a month-and-a-half apart, it's kind of ridiculous. You guys haven't released an adventure a month-and-half apart since the Fire Forest, when it was supposed to be a month apart.

Furthermore, Steve was around early on to provide untagged maps and there were art previews and all kinds of errata and other fun stuff. All of this has crawled to near non-existance. It's extremely frustrating for those of us who were excited by EnWorld's initial enthusiasm for the project. I don't want to make anyone angry with me, as I love Burning Sky, and appreciate all the work you folks have put in.

I just want some realistic estimates. Morrus, you're always saying "next week" and you have never, ever been correct on those estimates. It inevitably ends up being three to four weeks when you say that. I understand you're busy, and I understand that Steve broke his leg... I can live without the untagged maps. But I really *do* need the next adventure. When can paying customers get it?

 

[Volaran]

I'm not sure if this is anything new. I think the 3.5 version was almost a year past the initial estimates when it was finally finished, and a lot of that extra wait was the last 3 adventures.

There are various causes for this, but I seem to recall that it basically boiled down to Morrus not having aa large, dedicated staff like Paizo has with their adventure paths. I do seem to recall there being offers to get people partially-completed drafts if they were catching up with release schedule and an adventure was delayed. I think that might have been Ryan Nock, rather than Morrus though.

I'm not playing or running the 4E version, of course, so this is not an urgent issue for me. I do remember the frustration in waiting though.

 

[Morrus]

Furthermore, Steve was around early on to provide untagged maps and there were art previews and all kinds of errata and other fun stuff. All of this has crawled to near non-existance.

I posted two items of errata in just the last week! The jousting supplement and the revised Inquisitor Torrax. I also have a revised Madness which I playtested just last night.

The next adventure is well underway - I'll need to get a full update from Steve. It's not an excuse (merely an explanation) but we've been beset by so many problems; Steve's accident was just one of the problems. I'm not comfortable sharing the personal details of the problems of others, though - let's just say that worse than that accident happened to someone else, and something else befell another person. At one point I was being told of a different major issue in someone's life every 3-4 days. We've been playing catch-up ever since.

So I do understand the frustration - I'm playing through these adventures, too, and need the next one very soon! I've reached the end of #4, and will be starting #5 next week.

Of course, the other thing is that - as we've said before - when we started this we didn't realise how much of a rewrite 4E versions would entail. It was only when we got underway that we realised just how much work was involved.

But #6 on its way, I promise!

 

[RangerWickett]

Morrus . . . I think I'm pregnant.

 

[Jdvn1]

Morrus . . . I think I'm pregnant.

I didn't do it.

 

[EugeneZ]

I'm really failing at this whole "communication" thing. Maybe I don't spend enough time on message boards.

I'm not saying you should be releasing them faster, nor am I asking you to divulge the details of anyone's personal problems. I completely understand and wish those folks all the best; I honestly hope they take as much time as needed to deal with whatever events have come up in their lives. Burning Sky can wait. I can wait!

But I would *love* to be kept in the loop about the status. Maybe it's my background, working with a team in which process and communication are the bedrocks of success. EnWorld has no process and scattered, unorganized communication, which creates frustration for me (and I suspect I am not alone).

I guess I'm suggesting that until everyone is fully on-board to commit to a deadline, announce that Burning Sky is on hiatus. Then, once everyone is prepared to continue the conversion, announce a deadline and stick with it. If it comes down to releasing a subpar product to meet the deadline, then, sure, push the deadline, but communicate it cleanly and announce a new, realistic deadline.

Obviously, factors like the difficulty of a rewrite and delays in getting certain maps or whatever can make setting a realistic deadline hard. That's why when EnWorld slipped its first SIX deadlines (including Paragon Paths) I didn't complain. But by now, you guys should have enough experience to set a reasonable deadline. Again, when an accident occurs that prevents work from continuing, go on hiatus. Communicate this in a way that's clear to all your customers.

At least, that's what I was trying to get at. You *could* just keep doing what you're doing. I'll just have to deal with not being able to plan my group's activities from week to week, which, well, sucks, and immensely lowers our enjoyment of the campaign... which, due to its high quality, is really a kick in the trousers.

 

[Morrus]

But I would *love* to be kept in the loop about the status. Maybe it's my background, working with a team in which process and communication are the bedrocks of success. EnWorld has no process and scattered, unorganized communication, which creates frustration for me (and I suspect I am not alone).

Sure. You're right - there is a lack of corporate discipline; we - for better or worse - are a few random guys writing an AP for a pittance. I think that has it's pros and cons - certainly the result is more focussed and visionary (i.e. less "committee blandness" and more "one guy with a good idea") but it's also more haphazard and depended on individual's lives. WotC, for example, doesn't suffer from a staff member being off for a while - it has a dozen others to fill in. We're utterly screwed when any one person has a delay, because we have no replacements of redundancy.

I guess I'm suggesting that until everyone is fully on-board to commit to a deadline, announce that Burning Sky is on hiatus.

But it's not. #6 is coming! Everyone is working on it; saying otherwise would not be true.

If it comes down to releasing a subpar product to meet the deadline, then, sure, push the deadline, but communicate it cleanly and announce a new, realistic deadline.

Obviously, factors like the difficulty of a rewrite and delays in getting certain maps or whatever can make setting a realistic deadline hard.

That's why when EnWorld slipped its first SIX deadlines (including Paragon Paths) I didn't complain.

Did Paragon Paths have a deadline? It's pretty much a bonus extra product and completely non-necessary (it was certainly never part of the 3.5 version - I just had an idea one day that folks might like it and figured I'd try to write it) and arrives when it arrives. It's the one thing I'm writing myself (my first solo project!) and will be releaed when I'm not embarrassed for the public to see it! I have it; I don't like it as it is. I don't want you to see it until I'm happy it's suitable for your consumption.

I could announce a deadline; but when I've done that before something has happened (Steve broke his leg, someone died, someone got diagnosed with a mental illness and disappeared for 3 months, etc. - and count the people....) if one other thing happens and we don't meet that deadline people will be back here asking why not. So I think ny best approach is to simply keep you honestly apprised of status - with as much transparency as dispensing others' personal details allows - and say that the manuscript (that, as you know, is Steve) is almost done, and that layout (Eric) tends to take a week or two and that we're fortunate in that we're not currently waiting on any art.

I'd rather be honest than play guessing games with "deadlines" and such. The above is how it is. If I have to give a deadline for anything, then I'll say December 2052. Then I can't be wrong.

I'm trying to be honest here - we're four - now three - guys doing our best, but we've learned over the last 5 releases that we never know what's going to happen next. What we DO promise is that you WILL get them all.

 

[Bercilak]

What we DO promise is that you WILL get them all.

While I too would like something akin to release dates, even the above quote is somewhat of a relief. I got a little nervous as well when the forum posts about a new AP came up. I wondered if that was a death knell for WOtBS--given that this is a 4 to 5 person operation, I wondered if people were going to start working on a new AP which would mean even longer wait-times for future WotBS stuff.

I'm not too worried yet though; my group is only midway through adventure 3. But if we get to adventure 5, and 6 is still not out, I will definitely be worried.

(Part of the problem, I'm sure is that ENWorld's web presence is large enough to make it seem like a big operation, which is misleading.)

Berc

 

[Morrus]

While I too would like something akin to release dates, even the above quote is somewhat of a relief. I got a little nervous as well when the forum posts about a new AP came up. I wondered if that was a death knell for WOtBS--given that this is a 4 to 5 person operation, I wondered if people were going to start working on a new AP which would mean even longer wait-times for future WotBS stuff.

Goodness no! There's no overlap of people. Ryan Nock (who directed the 3.5 version of WotBS) is heading up the new AP, but that's (a) a year away (b) only in the discussion stages and (c) has no staff involved yet except for him (and he's not involved with WotBS 4E).

(Part of the problem, I'm sure is that ENWorld's web presence is large enough to make it seem like a big operation, which is misleading.)

I guess we have that problem. EN World is - basically - me, plus a few volunteers who moderate or do some tech stuff from time to time. ENP is literally just me plus people I pay to do stuff - which, at current count, is Steve to convert the adventures from 3.5 to 4E, Eric to lay them out, and any artists I manage to persuade to produce new art quickly for cheap!

 

[EugeneZ]

I know exactly how large EnWorld is, and as Morrus points out, that has its advantages.

You're right, Morrus -- Paragon Paths was well done. You didn't know when you'd finish it, and didn't set a deadline. So I take it back, EnWorld missed five deadlines, with Tears being the sixth rather than the seventh. That means you've missed every deadline you've set; in some cases, badly.

I'm not annoyed that you are unable to recover from staff issues like WotC. I knew that going in. I'm annoyed because my group is in the middle of adventure #5 and we have no idea when #6 will be released, and you've taken over half a year to release two adventures... without ever announcing that they will be late. If you had announced it, our group would have found a way to slow down the pacing. I just kept thinking that since you guys didn't change your estimates of a month/month-and-a-half that you were confident you'd at least approach them.

If you'd said "Hey guys, lots of stuff is happening with our staff right now, we know the adventure is due out tomorrow, but it's gonna take a few months to sort this stuff out. I don't know how long so I can't give you a deadline, but it sure as heck is not coming out this month." Then we'd stagger our sessions and figure things out. But it always felt like the adventure was coming next week because the release dates never changed and you kept saying "next week" after being heckled for updates a month after the release date slipped, and that same "next week" turned into another month -- three months total. Now it's the same thing for Tears... complete radio silence regarding the now two-month-slipped date.

I'm just asking you to keep us informed, nothing else.