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Where 3E and 4E players stand in the great 3E disputes
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<blockquote data-quote="Greg K" data-source="post: 4523633" data-attributes="member: 5038"><p>The inclusion of mental powers is fine. However, I didn't like the implementation in the 3e psionic handbooks. Give me a system like the one in Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook (or the original d20 Star Wars Force mechanics).</p><p></p><p></p><p>"The Antchrist" is too strong. I liked the goal, but not the mechanics and schools. Give me the Book of Iron Might (Malhavoc) in which the DM and and players can describe cool maneuvers on the fly. Plus, I didn't like that TOB didn't give a system for building new maneuvers which again BOIM does.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Past levels ten to twelve, they do get overshadowed. As for complaints about the lack of things to do outside of combat and lack of skill points? Well there is customizing a character in the PHB (p.94/3.0 and 3.5p.110). </p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, beginning at higher levels (12 or 13). However, I have never liked DND past a certain level anyway so I do my best not to play the game once it reaches the point where spellcasters dominate. However, I do see where it can be a problem.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Heavily houseruled. </p><p>First, I use Unearthed Arcana and several third party products while severly limiting the majority of WOTC supplement. The only WOTC books (other than Unearthed Arcana) that really see use beyond UA, are books like MM2, Fiend Folio, Fiendish Codex I, Book of Vile Darkness, Lords of Madness, Heroes of Horro, and Stormwrack. Otherwise, the content from WOTC books is primarily limited to a combined handful of class variants, spells, feats and equipment</p><p></p><p>Even the core rules are not sacred. For example, there are alterations to core classes (some drawing from UA and third party sources), a single saving throw progression, slow leveling (from the DMG), divine casters having spell lists tailored to deities specific to the campaign, the removal or alteration of some spells and the removal of some of the PHB equipment.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Casually (with some optimizing at the beginning to reflect background/training) . I tend to discourage heaviy optimizing and do encourage organic growth. However, I do try to find or create UA style class variants as well as use some 3 party classes to help those players, who would use multiclassing to meet an archetype.</p><p></p><p>a) characters can't acquire new good save bonuses or new weapon or armor proficiencies via multiclassing. Those are benefits granted to first level characters (unless you want your character to spend a significant time not adventuring). If you want to learn new weapons and/or armor, and improve saves after character generation, use feats.</p><p></p><p>b) Not all races/cultures have access to every available class or class variant.</p><p></p><p>c) If player's are building their characters organically, I'll take into account their skills when determing challenges for the characters </p><p>As such, they should build their initial character to the character that they envision (within what is reasonable for a first level character and given the resources available) rather than trying to game the system and trying to assume what I will not throw something at them. If they ignore skills just to keep two or three skills maxed out, they better have a background reason for doing so instead of gaming the system, because I will treat the lack of skills as conciously assigning deliberate weaknesses on the part of the player. </p><p></p><p>Furthermore, as the game progresses, the characters need to have had the opportunity to use existing skills to improve them and, to learn new skills, they need a trainer (or, for some skills, spent time in the right circumstances). So, if the party has been spending a lot of time in the wilderness, it might be a good to spend some time with the ranger or druid and pick up a rank in survival or nature lore.</p><p></p><p></p><p>d) As for multiclassing and Prcs, characters need a trainer to learn a new class and prestige class. Even some feats are cultural specific. This requires finding a trainer (which may be a PC if of the appropriate class), convincing them to train you, and being able to spend time with them to train. And, since I assign the prestige classes in my campaign based on the existing cultures and organization, the character needs to have knowledge that it exists (either by being raised in correct culture/locatio or estabishing ties with them during the campaign) in addition to the other requirements (i.e, finding a trainer, training time, etc.). Plus, if it's a secret organization, they may have to learn about it/find it even if he or she is from the culture or have spent time there. </p><p></p><p>Preplanning your character's career progression for the campaign ahead of time is, therefore, often better left as an excercise. As the players determine where the campaign goes by their characters' in game actions, your character may be off in some remote corner of the setting far away from the place your character needs to be at your prescribed time. </p><p></p><p>That all said, there are some PrCs which I don't require characters seeking out a trainer as they replace the standard class progression to reflect the standard training that a character would have had. Again, though, this is by culture or organization.</p><p></p><p></p><p>No. It has some elements that I like. However, over all it is not my cup of tea.</p><p>(edit: Actually, I would not run it. I might be willing to play, if we avoid the dinosaurs and the rail).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Currently, I am not playing or running either. I am running Mutants and Masterminds and playing Rolemaster. However, I am working on a new campaign which will be 3e. </p><p></p><p>As for 4e, I will not play or run it at this time. There are a few things I do like over 3e, but overal it would require WOTC to put out an Unearthed Arcana type book and third party support addressing my issues with 4e. However, 3e was the same way- I just had less issues with the core 3e rules.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Greg K, post: 4523633, member: 5038"] The inclusion of mental powers is fine. However, I didn't like the implementation in the 3e psionic handbooks. Give me a system like the one in Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook (or the original d20 Star Wars Force mechanics). "The Antchrist" is too strong. I liked the goal, but not the mechanics and schools. Give me the Book of Iron Might (Malhavoc) in which the DM and and players can describe cool maneuvers on the fly. Plus, I didn't like that TOB didn't give a system for building new maneuvers which again BOIM does. Past levels ten to twelve, they do get overshadowed. As for complaints about the lack of things to do outside of combat and lack of skill points? Well there is customizing a character in the PHB (p.94/3.0 and 3.5p.110). Yes, beginning at higher levels (12 or 13). However, I have never liked DND past a certain level anyway so I do my best not to play the game once it reaches the point where spellcasters dominate. However, I do see where it can be a problem. Heavily houseruled. First, I use Unearthed Arcana and several third party products while severly limiting the majority of WOTC supplement. The only WOTC books (other than Unearthed Arcana) that really see use beyond UA, are books like MM2, Fiend Folio, Fiendish Codex I, Book of Vile Darkness, Lords of Madness, Heroes of Horro, and Stormwrack. Otherwise, the content from WOTC books is primarily limited to a combined handful of class variants, spells, feats and equipment Even the core rules are not sacred. For example, there are alterations to core classes (some drawing from UA and third party sources), a single saving throw progression, slow leveling (from the DMG), divine casters having spell lists tailored to deities specific to the campaign, the removal or alteration of some spells and the removal of some of the PHB equipment. Casually (with some optimizing at the beginning to reflect background/training) . I tend to discourage heaviy optimizing and do encourage organic growth. However, I do try to find or create UA style class variants as well as use some 3 party classes to help those players, who would use multiclassing to meet an archetype. a) characters can't acquire new good save bonuses or new weapon or armor proficiencies via multiclassing. Those are benefits granted to first level characters (unless you want your character to spend a significant time not adventuring). If you want to learn new weapons and/or armor, and improve saves after character generation, use feats. b) Not all races/cultures have access to every available class or class variant. c) If player's are building their characters organically, I'll take into account their skills when determing challenges for the characters As such, they should build their initial character to the character that they envision (within what is reasonable for a first level character and given the resources available) rather than trying to game the system and trying to assume what I will not throw something at them. If they ignore skills just to keep two or three skills maxed out, they better have a background reason for doing so instead of gaming the system, because I will treat the lack of skills as conciously assigning deliberate weaknesses on the part of the player. Furthermore, as the game progresses, the characters need to have had the opportunity to use existing skills to improve them and, to learn new skills, they need a trainer (or, for some skills, spent time in the right circumstances). So, if the party has been spending a lot of time in the wilderness, it might be a good to spend some time with the ranger or druid and pick up a rank in survival or nature lore. d) As for multiclassing and Prcs, characters need a trainer to learn a new class and prestige class. Even some feats are cultural specific. This requires finding a trainer (which may be a PC if of the appropriate class), convincing them to train you, and being able to spend time with them to train. And, since I assign the prestige classes in my campaign based on the existing cultures and organization, the character needs to have knowledge that it exists (either by being raised in correct culture/locatio or estabishing ties with them during the campaign) in addition to the other requirements (i.e, finding a trainer, training time, etc.). Plus, if it's a secret organization, they may have to learn about it/find it even if he or she is from the culture or have spent time there. Preplanning your character's career progression for the campaign ahead of time is, therefore, often better left as an excercise. As the players determine where the campaign goes by their characters' in game actions, your character may be off in some remote corner of the setting far away from the place your character needs to be at your prescribed time. That all said, there are some PrCs which I don't require characters seeking out a trainer as they replace the standard class progression to reflect the standard training that a character would have had. Again, though, this is by culture or organization. No. It has some elements that I like. However, over all it is not my cup of tea. (edit: Actually, I would not run it. I might be willing to play, if we avoid the dinosaurs and the rail). Currently, I am not playing or running either. I am running Mutants and Masterminds and playing Rolemaster. However, I am working on a new campaign which will be 3e. As for 4e, I will not play or run it at this time. There are a few things I do like over 3e, but overal it would require WOTC to put out an Unearthed Arcana type book and third party support addressing my issues with 4e. However, 3e was the same way- I just had less issues with the core 3e rules. [/QUOTE]
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