Where 3E and 4E players stand in the great 3E disputes

[thecasualoblivion]

Before this gets started, this isn't an attempt at yet another edition wars thread. I'm just wondering where fans of the different games stand in regards to the classic disputes between 3E players. This isn't a knock on 3E, as these were issues that were discussed to no end between 3E players before 4E was ever announced. I'm curious to see where people playing either edition fall in terms of the old 3E discussions

So here is the questionaire:

1. Psionics: Good or Bad?

2. Tome of Battle: The antichrist or best thing that ever happened?

3. Fighter Sux: Yes or No?

4. Wizard and CoDzilla overpowered to the point of game disruption: yes or no?

5. Your 3E games: Rules as written or houseruled into oblivion?

6. Does your group optimize, or play more casually?

7. Eberron: Yes or No?

8. Do you currently play more 3E, or 4E?(this question is to see where each group falls in terms of the previous questions)


If I missed any of these, let me know an I can add them later.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

1. Psionics: Amazing! I would like it even more with fun more modern terms, pseudo-science/Victoriana stuff.

2. Tome of Battle: Good, but some mechanics felt a bit obtuse.

3. Fighter Sux: Fun for like 1st couple levels, sucks after the rest.

4. Wizard and CoDzilla overpowered to the point of game disruption: For the Wizard definitely, luckily haven't seen someone make a CoDzilla, but from what I have heard seems so.

5. Your 3E games: Would houserule into oblivion... But could never hammer my way through the rules.

6. Does your group optimize, or play more casually? I dunno if it be "casual", but our group doesn't optimize. But we roleplay/do lots of narrative (group storytelling) with our games.

7. Eberron: Yes or No? I haven't run it, but it is a very neat setting. Though would like the noir feel to be amped up more.

8. Do you currently play more 3E, or 4E?(this question is to see where each group falls in terms of the previous questions) Only 4e now.

 

[Mark Hope]

3e player here (well, Pathfinder with Arcana Evolved and Conan d20 additions, actually). Never tried 4e.

1. Psionics: Good, either as actual psionics or as another version of magic.

2. Tome of Battle: Haven't used it. Looks like it would be cool in the right context rather than a feature of every game.

3. Fighter Sux: Fighters are great.

4. Wizard and CoDzilla overpowered to the point of game disruption: Nothing overpowers the game except me, the DM

5. Your 3E games: A wild melange of various systems and houserules.

6. Does your group optimize, or play more casually? Depends on the player. Some girls do, some girls don't.

7. Eberron: Yes with the right DM. Otherwise, no!

8. Do you currently play more 3E, or 4E? No 4e at all. Doesn't interest me.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I'll answer my own questions:

1. Psionics--Generally liked them and never had an issue. Always thought they had a Victorian feel to them(particularly Telepath/Seer) as opposed to Sci-Fi. Psychic Warrior was one of my favorite classes.

2. Tome of Battle--Best thing that ever happened. Probably would have given up 3E without it.

3. Fighter Sux--I was the guy who always played Fighters in 2E. The 3E Fighter was beyond disappointing.

4. Wizard and CoDzilla--Not as big a problem in practice as it was in theory. Most of our games threw RAW out the window, and none of my group had a real good feel for abusing these. Except for me...

5. Your 3E Games--Almost universally houseruled into oblivion.

6. Optimization?--We have two players who always optimize(and one also cheats), so this tended to start an arms race and forced everybody to follow suit.

7. Eberron--I don't like Eberron, but I deeply respect it. It is the most successful campaign setting I've seen for D&D in terms of accomplishing what it sets out to do.

8. 3E or 4E--currently play nothing but 4E.

 

[Ycore Rixle]

So here is the questionaire:

1. Psionics: Good or Bad?

2. Tome of Battle: The antichrist or best thing that ever happened?

3. Fighter Sux: Yes or No?

4. Wizard and CoDzilla overpowered to the point of game disruption: yes or no?

5. Your 3E games: Rules as written or houseruled into oblivion?

6. Does your group optimize, or play more casually?

7. Eberron: Yes or No?

8. Do you currently play more 3E, or 4E?(this question is to see where each group falls in terms of the previous questions)

Good idea.

1. Psionics are fine. If a player wants them in, and I'm DMing, I make sure that they have a logical place in the campaign world. As a player, I don't care much whether another player at the table has a psionic character or not. Psionics can be fun, or they might not be. In and of themselves, they're no big deal.

2. I wrote it. Sort of. Rich Baker did most of the mechanics. My name's on the cover, but one of the reasons why I don't write for Wizards any more is because what I wrote often didn't appear the way I wrote it when the final book came out. So let's just say this: I think the ToB had a great goal (and this was explicit in the design doc and discussion), viz, to make fighters and melee'ers more fun and more on par with wizards and CoDzilla in combat (but see #3 and #4 below). The goal was never to make combat the focus of a campaign, and the goal was never to make fighters similar to casters. I'm basically ok with per-encounter powers as long as their limitations are rationally explained (using up ki, your stories and poems get tiresome instead of inspiring, you get winded so that your rage becomes an exhaustion penalty). For a better idea of what I would have done with ToB if I were on my own, see the combat portions of Spellbound Kingdoms (in my sig, coming out next summer).

3. Fighters rock and could be very effective in 3e, even without ToB or PHBII. But they could have rocked even harder and been even more interesting than they were.

4. Wizard and CoDzilla were absolutely not overpowered to the point of game disruption. If by some quirk of Radiant Servants and super scroll-scribery your wizards and CoDzillas were overpowered, then that's the beauty of the DM. Make some new feats, hand out some fancy swords, send in a bunch of roper/hydra/golem/grappler monsters. Lots of ways to avoid game disruption.

5. I played a ton of 3e and 3.5e as written. No house rules at all.

6. Most of my groups play casually, but fairly intensely. That is, we play casually but we're lifelong D&D players and we love the game. A few min/maxers have been in my groups now and then, but that works out just fine too. Again, the DM's job is to make sure everyone is challenged. The rules' job is to help the DM do his job.

7. Well, I wrote an Eberron book too (Explorer's Handbook), so yeah, I like Eberron. A lot. I was glad they finally made an attempt to do a world somewhat logically based on the D&D rules. Was it a perfect success? No, not even close. But it was fun. Could it have been better? Yes.

8. I DM a weekly 4e group and a bi-weekly (or tri-weekly) 3e group.

 

[Crothian]

1. Psionics: Not a fan, works too much like the normal spell systems


2. Tome of Battle: Again, not a fan. It felt once again too much like just magic.

3. Fighter Sux: Over 9 years of playing and running 3ed and we always had a fighter and he was always effective.

4. Wizard and CoDzilla overpowered to the point of game disruption: Overpowered, I'd say yes. To the point of game disruption though, never. But nothing rules wise ever disrupted out games.

5. Your 3E games: Rules as written or houseruled into oblivion? In the middle, we have a few house rules that all apply to PCs and to each PC equally.

6. Does your group optimize, or play more casually? Yes!! We have both, but I will say those who optimize usually aren't that good at it.


7. Eberron: Eberron is a great setting. I was not a fan initially but the books converted me once I gave them a chance.

8. Do you currently play more 3E, or 4E?

Changeling

3e because there is a campaign that needs to be finished. 4e is too new so I wanted to wait a little before we started it.

 

[DEP]

1. Psionics--Generally liked them and never had an issue.

2. Tome of Battle--Disliked it. My powergamer in the group LOVED it. The rest hated it, so we all eventually decided to say no to it.

3. Fighter Sux--Terrible

4. Wizard and CoDzilla--Not as much as people say. They are fun to play. I had one good wizard that I made which is awesome. And I was the only person to ever make a CoDzilla

5. Your 3E Games--Almost RAW. Not a huge amounts of change.

6. Optimization?--We have two players who always optimize(and one also cheated), so this tended to start an arms race and forced everybody to follow suit. I myself have only optimized a few times. One time was just because I was bored with the rest of the lame party, so I optimized.

7. Eberron--I LOVE Eberron. If only I could have played more Eberron.

8. 3E or 4E--currently play a converted 4e STAP and Pathfinder and soon Second Darkness. Both using the Beta Ruleset.

Also, 90% of the time I am the DM.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Before this gets started, this isn't an attempt at yet another edition wars thread. I'm just wondering where fans of the different games stand in regards to the classic disputes between 3E players. This isn't a knock on 3E, as these were issues that were discussed to no end between 3E players before 4E was ever announced. I'm curious to see where people playing either edition fall in terms of the old 3E discussions

So here is the questionaire:

1. Psionics: Good or Bad?

Like the flavor of telepathy and telekines, but I am never certain it fits into a fantasy game. I also liked the idea of the Psychic Warrior. Mechanics were always flawed (and I am just talking 3E here).

2. Tome of Battle: The antichrist or best thing that ever happened?

It looks interesting and innovative on paper, but I never got to try it out.

3. Fighter Sux: Yes or No?

It sucks that the optimized way of a Fighter was pretty boring - weapon focus and then maybe use trip as your standard combat maneuver. (Add grapple against humanoid and spellcasting opponents)

4. Wizard and CoDzilla overpowered to the point of game disruption: yes or no?

They were overpowered in the sense that you couldn't run an effective party without them. You always felt how much you missed without them.

5. Your 3E games: Rules as written or houseruled into oblivion?

Avoided most houserules, though we played with a 3.0/3.5 for a while. For example, we didn't like the short-time animal buffs that much, because they made book-keeping worse.

6. Does your group optimize, or play more casually?

I think everyone optimized to some degree, though some were better at it then others, and some people knew better how to use their optimized character efficiently then others. For me, character creation was usually time intensive at higher levels since I wanted to find a nice theme that also was optimzied for my PC.

7. Eberron: Yes or No?

Like it.

8. Do you currently play more 3E, or 4E?(this question is to see where each group falls in terms of the previous questions)

We have switched to 4E fully. It was faster then I expected, since we decied to convert all running D&D campaigns to 4E (which means 2 Paizo Adventure Path and one Paizo/Dungeon Adventure Path converted.) and started 2 new ones. (each player has its own campaign, though effectively one of the campaigns is dormant since the player/DM is no longer regularly "available". Work.

 

[JoeGKushner]

1. Psionics: Good or Bad?

Good.

2. Tome of Battle: The antichrist or best thing that ever happened?

Neither. Optional supplement with some good and some bad.

3. Fighter Sux: Yes or No?

Core fighter in core rules highly underpowered. With optional rules/feats from PHB2, not so much.

4. Wizard and CoDzilla overpowered to the point of game disruption: yes or no?

No. Too many monsters with spell immunity and high MR to make them too overpowered. Too low hit points to survive easily at those higher levels when 50+ points is a typical attack.

5. Your 3E games: Rules as written or houseruled into oblivion?

Houseruled. Heavily.

6. Does your group optimize, or play more casually?

Both. Some players min-max, others barely can add.

7. Eberron: Yes or No?

Eberron gets the thumbs up.

8. Do you currently play more 3E, or 4E?(this question is to see where each group falls in terms of the previous questions)

Currently more 4e. We finished Savage Tide right after 4e came out so we've had a lot of 3e.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

1. Psionics: Good or Bad? BAD

2. Tome of Battle: The antichrist or best thing that ever happened? ANTICHRIST

3. Fighter Sux: Yes or No? NO

4. Wizard and CoDzilla overpowered to the point of game disruption: yes or no? YES

5. Your 3E games: Rules as written or houseruled into oblivion? HRIO

6. Does your group optimize, or play more casually? BOTH

7. Eberron: Yes or No? NO

8. Do you currently play more 3E, or 4E?BOTH. MORE AND MORE 4E OF LATE.