Where are the fault lines?

[Spatula]

Without turning this into an edition war, what are the fault lines in the fan base that wizards will need to bridge in order to unite everyone under a new edition? Let's say you have a group of players who each hail from a different edition and are representative of that edition's fans. What problems will you run into trying to customize a game they can all enjoy.

I don't think they can unify the fans. It's not like 2000 when most D&D players had drifted off to other systems or stopped playing altogether. Both 3e/PF and 4e seem to have very active fan bases. And at least some portion of the PF fan base thinks WotC is the devil.

That said, when I think of fault lines, the following occur to me:

* "New"/"weird" fantasy vs Tolkien-esque "traditional" fantasy.

Once upon a time, 3e came out and was charged with being too "anime" or "dungeonpunk" or "videogamey." Years later, 4e put dragon-men and devil-people in its PHB1, and things only got worse.

* Quirky, individualized subsystems vs unifying mechanics.
* Balancing Flavor vs Crunch.
* Rules-lite systems vs systems that allow for heavy customization (and customization's overbearing cousin, optimization).
* Everyday magic vs "magic is rare and mysterious."
* Interesting combat options vs "I swing my sword, again."
* Heroic PCs vs PCs that run from a house cat.

 

[Nagol]

More like shattered crystal than regular fault lines...

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I have been a gamer of:
Ars Magica - and would again
Call of Cthulhu - and will again
Vampire: the Masquerade - and might again
Changeling: the Dreaming - and would again
Mage: the Sorcerer's Crusade - and would again
Wraith: the Oblivion - and would again
Amazing Engine - and would again (Faerie, Queen & Country)
OD&D - not much interested
AD&D - not much interested
AD&D 2e - not much interested
3e & 3.5 - prefer Pathfinder, but would play or run if needed
Pathfinder - am running now
4e - never again
Spycraft - am running now
OGL Steampunk - and would again
D20 Modern - and would again (but hated some of the supplements)
Deadlands - and would again
Savage Worlds - did not much like
True 20 - and would again
Basic Role Play - and would again
RoleMaster - lost interest
Traveller - and would again
Ringworld - if folks were interested
Chill - if folks were interested
SuperWorld - and would again
All Flesh Must Be Eaten - and will again, I am sure
Pendragon - and would again
RuneQuest 2e and 3e, not the current - and would again
Morrow Project - and would again
Gamma World - and would again, but not the current version
Aftermath - and would again
Mega - never again
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, not the current edition - and would again
Fantasy Craft - have some problems with the gear system, but otherwise like it
Babylon 5, both Mongoose and Chameleon Eclectic - and would again
Millennium's End - and would again

The Auld Grump, may have missed a few....

 

[Stalker0]

I have been a gamer of:
Ars Magica - and would again
Call of Cthulhu - and will again
Vampire: the Masquerade - and might again
Changeling: the Dreaming - and would again
Mage: the Sorcerer's Crusade - and would again
Wraith: the Oblivion - and would again
Amazing Engine - and would again (Faerie, Queen & Country)
OD&D - not much interested
AD&D - not much interested
AD&D 2e - not much interested
3e & 3.5 - prefer Pathfinder, but would play or run if needed
Pathfinder - am running now
4e - never again
Spycraft - am running now
OGL Steampunk - and would again
D20 Modern - and would again (but hated some of the supplements)
Deadlands - and would again
Savage Worlds - did not much like
True 20 - and would again
Basic Role Play - and would again
RoleMaster - lost interest
Traveller - and would again
Ringworld - if folks were interested
Chill - if folks were interested
SuperWorld - and would again
All Flesh Must Be Eaten - and will again, I am sure
Pendragon - and would again
RuneQuest 2e and 3e, not the current - and would again
Morrow Project - and would again
Gamma World - and would again, but not the current version
Aftermath - and would again
Mega - never again
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, not the current edition - and would again
Fantasy Craft - have some problems with the gear system, but otherwise like it
Babylon 5, both Mongoose and Chameleon Eclectic - and would again
Millennium's End - and would again

The Auld Grump, may have missed a few....

The thread was worth it just for a good list of gaming systems to try out if I'm ever itching for something different.

 

[Ahnehnois]

There's one very simple point of division. D&D has something of a dual heritage. There's the miniatures wargaming, and then there's the theatrical storytelling.

There's a lot of similar or analagous issues. Rollplay vs. roleplay. Verisimilitude vs. balance. Gamism vs. Simulationism and Narrativism. 4e vs not 4e.

D&D is sort of like a half-orc, struggling with its two fundamental imperatives.

 

[Greg K]

Despite starting with Holmes Basic, moving on to AD&D 1e, 2e, 3e and playing around 100rpgs and having own more, I don't consider myself a "gamer". I don't like board games. I don't like computer games. I don't like card games.

I consider myself an "rpg gamer", but I am selective and more of a "system" person. Currently, the systems that I will play/run are limited:

Savage Worlds
M&M 2e
Icons
Cortex (Classic)
True20
D&D 3e: Heavily house ruled (including DMG variants, UA variants and third party sourcebooks) and without most WOTC supplements

D20M: ignoring WOTC supplements, replacing the fx rules with some third party variations (Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth and Psychic's Handbook) and using Blood and Fists for Martial Arts.

Rogue Swords of the Empire (a.k.a, Barony, Conrad's Fantasy): if I can replace my stolen copy

Toon: If I replace my stolen copy.

Other games, I am interested in giving a test run as a GM or player
All For One (setting looks interesting, but I tend not to like dice pool systems)
BASH (not sure I will like 3 stats)
Cartoon Action Hour (not sure about After These Messages (sounds metagamey) or Setback tokens)
Dread (non-Jenga edition)
Little Fears: Nightmare Edition
Lady Blackbird
Barbarians of Lemuria (don't think it will be my game. I like actual skills)

Games in which I might be interested (heard about these from my online friend and reviewer , Tommy. However, I have not seen the games/mechanics)
Crime Network
Terror Network
Horror Show
Part-Time Gods
Wu Xing: Ninja Crusade

 

[Raith5]

I cant help but feel that the mantra of 'everything is core' came and bit 4th ed in the rear. I guess some people felt that things like warlords, dragonborn and teiflings were forced upon them...

The appearance of what looks like modularity of the next iteration of D and D seems to seek to moderate tensions like these. But there are other significant tensions as set out in this thread.

Core mechanical issues like differences in regards to healing surges is going to be an issue. Mearls and his team are going to need asbestos pants!

 

[Lanefan]

Some at-the-table fault lines not yet mentioned:

Speed of play part I: plow through a full adventure in one night's session vs. the same adventure taking 5-10 sessions

Speed of play part II: level-up every session vs. level-up a few times a year, or never at all

Combat rules: fully-turn-based where what you do on your turn happens in a large degree of isolation from everything else vs. free-flow combat where just about anything - even including movement - can be interrupted or changed by the sometimes-simultaneous actions of others

House rules essential (kitbasher) vs. house rules abhorrent (rules are gospel)

Hard-core optimizer and system guru vs. casual beer-and-dice part-timer

Player empowerment and system knowledge vs. DM fiat and system mystery

Lan-"I have to respect the 5e design team for having the cojones to even attempt this"-efan

 

[howandwhy99]

Some of it comes down to game edition and some in game theory philosophy. Whether all of them will fall under D&D is another matter. I don't see them doing a superheroes game, for instance, or western.

What they can shoot for in terms of camps are:
4e, 3.x, pathfinder, and OD&D-1e-2e-Basic
But then they have folks like me who like puzzles and then those who will want Big Model narrativism. There are guys who like story arcs and connected adventures like Paizo's, but there are also sandbox guys. Beyond that there are those who want improv everything. It's a definitely a mixed bag.

I'm hoping they come up with an enjoyable, simple, and guts of D&D core game to satisfy anyone just starting new. On top of that all of the divides can be dealt with afterwards. Creating a great game, while keeping them in mind is the real trick though.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Sometimes it seems to me that the biggest gulf to span is people identifying themselves as "player of game X" rather than just "gamer".

Yankees Fans and Red Sox Fans are both fans of baseball. Just not fans of EACH other. Try bridging THAT gap then talk to me about everyone just being a gamer.

I have NO common ground with someone who plays 4E. NONE. Unless they play SOMETHING ELSE that we both play and enjoy. Other than that us both being gamers, each one playing or strongly supporting a game that the other cant stand means nothing.