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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gingersoul420" data-source="post: 8751353" data-attributes="member: 7037562">Holy cow.. this is insane! Ntm downright tragic. It really, really is since honestly, not to be overly dramatic here or anything folks, but this really could permanently ruin/cripple the Rogue class for good( or at least until a new edition comes along and undoes it).The only thing the core Rogue class had going for it ( and I say this as someone who absolutely loves that class ) in terms of overall playability - ntm appeal- was its position as the parties resident skill monkey ( aka trap disarming, lockpicking etc ).Take that away and there's practically no reason whatsoever to even play as a pure Rogue. They're just too weak to justify having in your party at all without that.I mean they never really could fight on equal terms with pretty much any real combat class or they'd be instantly slaughtered, they don't get any spells, they have really poor hit dice, they can't wear heavy armor and overall they're just very squishy and easily crushed.Sure they still get sneak attack damage( I hope anyways ) but even at higher levels it'll still never quite compare with a Wizards Fireball or the damage output of a raging barbarian equipped with a battle axe.Especially once you consider that a Rogue usually has to get within squishing range to actually use it and with their low hit points and armor restrictions while sneaking, that can be a dangerous proposition.Seriously though in a fantasy setting where dungeons are known to be filled with dangerous monsters, traps and treasure why would anyone bring along a Rogue when just about anyone can now disarm traps, look for hidden doors or pick locks, just as well as any thief - from a practical standpoint anyways- without their obvious weaknesses or drawbacks in combat? The answer is they wouldn't as even their skills as the party scout could easily be replaced by a Ranger, Druid or Bard who in addition to being able to sneak around,  also gain access to a limited spell list ( and in the case of Druids an animal companion )which increases their usefulness for when Stealth isn't an option anymore.Rogues however don't. All in all this could cause players to avoid the class completely since they don't really bring anything to the party they couldn't get elsewhere now and there's too many other flashier class options to pick from that'd be more useful.</blockquote>

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