D&D 5E Where did Open Locks and Remove Traps go?

[Hunyock]

OK, so I'm probably dating myself here as a former 1e geek who is getting back into it at 5e... but one thing that stood out when I read through the 5e Players Handbook is that I didn't see the "classic" thief skills of Opening Locks and Finding / Removing Traps. Did I miss something? Were those elements removed from the game in a previous edition?

How do you handle locked chests or disarming traps without specific skills or proficiencies - are those just simple Intelligence / Dexterity ability checks, or Investigation / Perception proficiency checks?

This seems to devalue the classic thief / rogue character - it was previously indispensable and now seems entirely optional in a party.

 

[fjw70]

OK, so I'm probably dating myself here as a former 1e geek who is getting back into it at 5e... but one thing that stood out when I read through the 5e Players Handbook is that I didn't see the "classic" thief skills of Opening Locks and Finding / Removing Traps. Did I miss something? Were those elements removed from the game in a previous edition?

How do you handle locked chests or disarming traps without specific skills or proficiencies - are those just simple Intelligence / Dexterity ability checks, or Investigation / Perception proficiency checks?

This seems to devalue the classic thief / rogue character - it was previously indispensable and now seems entirely optional in a party.

They are covered under thieves tools proficiency now.

 

[Gundark]

OK, so I'm probably dating myself here as a former 1e geek who is getting back into it at 5e... but one thing that stood out when I read through the 5e Players Handbook is that I didn't see the "classic" thief skills of Opening Locks and Finding / Removing Traps. Did I miss something? Were those elements removed from the game in a previous edition?

How do you handle locked chests or disarming traps without specific skills or proficiencies - are those just simple Intelligence / Dexterity ability checks, or Investigation / Perception proficiency checks?

This seems to devalue the classic thief / rogue character - it was previously indispensable and now seems entirely optional in a party.

Welcome back to D&D. Like was mentioned earlier those actions are handled under the thieves tools section. Rogues are proficient with them and thus get to add their proficiency bonus to checks to open locks and remove traps when carrying thieves tools.

 

[Remathilis]

OK, so I'm probably dating myself here as a former 1e geek who is getting back into it at 5e... but one thing that stood out when I read through the 5e Players Handbook is that I didn't see the "classic" thief skills of Opening Locks and Finding / Removing Traps. Did I miss something? Were those elements removed from the game in a previous edition?.

They are covered in proficiency in Thieves tools.

How do you handle locked chests or disarming traps without specific skills or proficiencies - are those just simple Intelligence / Dexterity ability checks, or Investigation / Perception proficiency checks?.

Correcet. Finding a Trap or a Secret Door is a Wisdom(Perception) or Intelligence (Investigation) [DM's Choice] Check. Disarming them is typically a Dexterity Check (with Thieves Tool proficiency bonus added in).

Its wonky, but its pretty much proficiency is Thieves Tools acts as a Disable Device skill (dex) but only when you have the tools. 5e opted to keep "tool" and "skill" proficiency separate, and it leads to some confusion.

This seems to devalue the classic thief / rogue character - it was previously indispensable and now seems entirely optional in a party.

That's actually the point.

5e has moved to the idea that you no longer need certain classes; you need certain roles/areas filled and multiple classes/builds can do that. You don't need a cleric for healing: a bard or paladin can heal just as good as one. Likewise, anyone with proficiency in Perception and Thieves Tools can act as "trapfinder" (the rogue still has advantages over them, such as expertise, but strictly speaking anyone proficient can fill that niche). This was done to avoid the "need" for a specific class (aka, "Bob, you're the cleric this game" mentality).

Before, Your group suffered without at least one cleric (not a druid, a cleric) and one thief; not you can build a group with a barbarian, ranger, warlock and bard and (with a bit of help from proper feats and backgrounds) be just as effective as a fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric at combat, traps, magics and healing.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Also, a little quirk in 5e that seems to have some interesting effects like this:

Skills are things inherent to your character that you cannot usually be deprived of. If you are tied up naked in a jail cell, you can still try an Insight check or a Perform check.

Tool proficiencies are in things that require some item to perform. They "give you the ability to do things you otherwise couldn't." Proficiency in thieves' tools or in land vehicles, for instance, doesn't do you any good when you are tied up naked in a jail cell. But if you have the right tool...then you're good.

This makes tool proficiencies slightly less valuable than skill proficiencies, because you may not always have access to them. So a character can acquire a tool proficiency with downtime, but can't do the same thing with a skill proficiency.

Tool checks also might use different ability scores, while skill checks are fairly locked-in. A DM might call for you to use Dex with your thieves' tools, or they might call for you to use INT (for analyzing the mechanism) or WIS (for feeling the subtle changes in pressure and tactile sensation), or even CHA (like, if it's a magical trap!). For me personally, the whole process would be INT: Investigation for finding a trap, and mechanical knowledge to disable it with thieves' tools. But other DMs might kick it some other way.

This seems to devalue the classic thief / rogue character - it was previously indispensable and now seems entirely optional in a party.

You'll still be better with thieves' tools as a thief than anyone else. But now, no one HAS to play a thief if no one wants to -- any locks or traps in the game can still be bypassed by any character with proficiency in thieves' tools.

 

[Sir Brennen]

However, if one really wants to cleave to the "thief lock-picker and trap-disabler" archetype, the Rogue class has a feature called Expertise, which lets you double your proficiency bonus for a couple of skills, or a skill and thieves' tools. Make the skill Stealth, and you've really got a classic thief, as they're going to be better at those things than even another character with proficiency.

 

[Hunyock]

Too many people to quote, so let me just say Thanks to everyone for the great responses - they triggered the light bulb in my head! I did read the part about thieves tools proficiency but it didn't click that the rogue is the only one that gets the proficiency bonus for thieves tools, and I totally missed the part where the rogue gets not just Expertise, but also Reliable Talent. I also now see where 5e is blurring the lines between classes - I created a half-orc cleric in the war domain, and I swear at 1st level he's as good as any fighter I ever had under 1e/2e.

Thanks again gang -

 

[Gingersoul420]

Holy cow.. this is insane! Ntm downright tragic. It really, really is since honestly, not to be overly dramatic here or anything folks, but this really could permanently ruin/cripple the Rogue class for good( or at least until a new edition comes along and undoes it).

The only thing the core Rogue class had going for it ( and I say this as someone who absolutely loves that class ) in terms of overall playability - ntm appeal- was its position as the parties resident skill monkey ( aka trap disarming, lockpicking etc ).

Take that away and there's practically no reason whatsoever to even play as a pure Rogue. They're just too weak to justify having in your party at all without that.

I mean they never really could fight on equal terms with pretty much any real combat class or they'd be instantly slaughtered, they don't get any spells, they have really poor hit dice, they can't wear heavy armor and overall they're just very squishy and easily crushed.

Sure they still get sneak attack damage( I hope anyways ) but even at higher levels it'll still never quite compare with a Wizards Fireball or the damage output of a raging barbarian equipped with a battle axe.

Especially once you consider that a Rogue usually has to get within squishing range to actually use it and with their low hit points and armor restrictions while sneaking, that can be a dangerous proposition.

Seriously though in a fantasy setting where dungeons are known to be filled with dangerous monsters, traps and treasure why would anyone bring along a Rogue when just about anyone can now disarm traps, look for hidden doors or pick locks, just as well as any thief - from a practical standpoint anyways- without their obvious weaknesses or drawbacks in combat?

The answer is they wouldn't as even their skills as the party scout could easily be replaced by a Ranger, Druid or Bard who in addition to being able to sneak around, also gain access to a limited spell list ( and in the case of Druids an animal companion )which increases their usefulness for when Stealth isn't an option anymore.

Rogues however don't. All in all this could cause players to avoid the class completely since they don't really bring anything to the party they couldn't get elsewhere now and there's too many other flashier class options to pick from that'd be more useful.

 

[Stormonu]

"Everything you just said is wrong" ... and welcome to the boards.

Rogues are in a fine place. They have a good mix of abilities that makes them fun and useful. Their niche isn't as protected as it used to be, but then none of the other classes are either. It just makes it a lot easier to cover all the bases if you're a player short, or if you don't want to put all of your eggs in one basket.

And to be honest, I'd rather not depend on the fact that the entire adventure hinges on the ONE character's abilities, just to watch them get taken out in a fight or ambush right before we need them.

 

[Larnievc]

Holy cow.. this is insane! Ntm downright tragic. It really, really is since honestly, not to be overly dramatic here or anything folks, but this really could permanently ruin/cripple the Rogue class for good( or at least until a new edition comes along and undoes it).

The only thing the core Rogue class had going for it ( and I say this as someone who absolutely loves that class ) in terms of overall playability - ntm appeal- was its position as the parties resident skill monkey ( aka trap disarming, lockpicking etc ).

Take that away and there's practically no reason whatsoever to even play as a pure Rogue. They're just too weak to justify having in your party at all without that.

I mean they never really could fight on equal terms with pretty much any real combat class or they'd be instantly slaughtered, they don't get any spells, they have really poor hit dice, they can't wear heavy armor and overall they're just very squishy and easily crushed.

Sure they still get sneak attack damage( I hope anyways ) but even at higher levels it'll still never quite compare with a Wizards Fireball or the damage output of a raging barbarian equipped with a battle axe.

Especially once you consider that a Rogue usually has to get within squishing range to actually use it and with their low hit points and armor restrictions while sneaking, that can be a dangerous proposition.

Seriously though in a fantasy setting where dungeons are known to be filled with dangerous monsters, traps and treasure why would anyone bring along a Rogue when just about anyone can now disarm traps, look for hidden doors or pick locks, just as well as any thief - from a practical standpoint anyways- without their obvious weaknesses or drawbacks in combat?

The answer is they wouldn't as even their skills as the party scout could easily be replaced by a Ranger, Druid or Bard who in addition to being able to sneak around, also gain access to a limited spell list ( and in the case of Druids an animal companion )which increases their usefulness for when Stealth isn't an option anymore.

Rogues however don't. All in all this could cause players to avoid the class completely since they don't really bring anything to the party they couldn't get elsewhere now and there's too many other flashier class options to pick from that'd be more useful.

Have you played a 5e rogue much?