D&D 5E Where did Open Locks and Remove Traps go?

[EzekielRaiden]

However, if one really wants to cleave to the "thief lock-picker and trap-disabler" archetype, the Rogue class has a feature called Expertise, which lets you double your proficiency bonus for a couple of skills, or a skill and thieves' tools. Make the skill Stealth, and you've really got a classic thief, as they're going to be better at those things than even another character with proficiency.

Further, at higher levels, they also have Reliable Talent. So not only do they have +[Large bonus] to picking locks, springing traps, and hiding, but they literally can't do worse than 10+[Large bonus]. As long as a nat 1 doesn't mean automatic failure, they're pretty much guaranteed to get through most things. Only Rogues get that feature as a generic, "any ability check" thing. The only other source I know of for that sort of thing is the College of Eloquence, and that only applies to Charisma (Persuasion) and Charisma (Deception) checks, nothing else.

Rogues are still by far the best choice if you want someone really good at dealing with locks and traps (or skills, if they decide not to invest more into their Thieves' Tools proficiency.) Others can mimic part of their shtick, but never all of it.

 

[Art Waring]

there's practically no reason whatsoever to even play as a pure Rogue. They're just too weak to justify having in your party

I'm thinking you might not be too familiar with the 5e rogue, because everything you are saying sounds off to me.

Rogues are essentially a striker/ skirmisher class, with mobility to move in, strike a target, and then retreat using their class abilities. They are actually a pretty solid striker class, and they do exactly what they are intended to.

It seems like since any class can disarm traps you see no value in the Rogue, but it's an improvement not a detriment.

Furthermore, if you are playing a rogue just to be the skill monkey who disarms traps, you are discounting all of the other types of rogue archetypes you can play.

 

[DEFCON 1]

How is it @Gingersoul420 has only come upon this revelation now... a full 8 years after the 5E game has been released? And it's only because they read an 8-year-old thread to bring this all to light?

​

 

[DND_Reborn]

Holy cow.. this is insane! Ntm downright tragic. It really, really is since honestly, not to be overly dramatic here or anything folks, but this really could permanently ruin/cripple the Rogue class for good( or at least until a new edition comes along and undoes it).

The only thing the core Rogue class had going for it ( and I say this as someone who absolutely loves that class ) in terms of overall playability - ntm appeal- was its position as the parties resident skill monkey ( aka trap disarming, lockpicking etc ).

Take that away and there's practically no reason whatsoever to even play as a pure Rogue. They're just too weak to justify having in your party at all without that.

I mean they never really could fight on equal terms with pretty much any real combat class or they'd be instantly slaughtered, they don't get any spells, they have really poor hit dice, they can't wear heavy armor and overall they're just very squishy and easily crushed.

Sure they still get sneak attack damage( I hope anyways ) but even at higher levels it'll still never quite compare with a Wizards Fireball or the damage output of a raging barbarian equipped with a battle axe.

Especially once you consider that a Rogue usually has to get within squishing range to actually use it and with their low hit points and armor restrictions while sneaking, that can be a dangerous proposition.

Seriously though in a fantasy setting where dungeons are known to be filled with dangerous monsters, traps and treasure why would anyone bring along a Rogue when just about anyone can now disarm traps, look for hidden doors or pick locks, just as well as any thief - from a practical standpoint anyways- without their obvious weaknesses or drawbacks in combat?

The answer is they wouldn't as even their skills as the party scout could easily be replaced by a Ranger, Druid or Bard who in addition to being able to sneak around, also gain access to a limited spell list ( and in the case of Druids an animal companion )which increases their usefulness for when Stealth isn't an option anymore.

Rogues however don't. All in all this could cause players to avoid the class completely since they don't really bring anything to the party they couldn't get elsewhere now and there's too many other flashier class options to pick from that'd be more useful.

Congrats! ​

You have managed to necro a thread which has been buried for over EIGHT years! I think that is a record (as far as I have seen!).

And welcome to the boards.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Congrats! ​

You have managed to necro a thread which has been buried for over EIGHT years! I think that is a record (as far as I have seen!).

View attachment 259390

And welcome to the boards.

Oh, it is not a record. I’ve necro’d a couple of threads over 10 years old!

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Holy cow.. this is insane! Ntm downright tragic. It really, really is since honestly, not to be overly dramatic here or anything folks, but this really could permanently ruin/cripple the Rogue class for good( or at least until a new edition comes along and undoes it).

The only thing the core Rogue class had going for it ( and I say this as someone who absolutely loves that class ) in terms of overall playability - ntm appeal- was its position as the parties resident skill monkey ( aka trap disarming, lockpicking etc ).

Take that away and there's practically no reason whatsoever to even play as a pure Rogue. They're just too weak to justify having in your party at all without that.

I mean they never really could fight on equal terms with pretty much any real combat class or they'd be instantly slaughtered, they don't get any spells, they have really poor hit dice, they can't wear heavy armor and overall they're just very squishy and easily crushed.

Sure they still get sneak attack damage( I hope anyways ) but even at higher levels it'll still never quite compare with a Wizards Fireball or the damage output of a raging barbarian equipped with a battle axe.

Especially once you consider that a Rogue usually has to get within squishing range to actually use it and with their low hit points and armor restrictions while sneaking, that can be a dangerous proposition.

Seriously though in a fantasy setting where dungeons are known to be filled with dangerous monsters, traps and treasure why would anyone bring along a Rogue when just about anyone can now disarm traps, look for hidden doors or pick locks, just as well as any thief - from a practical standpoint anyways- without their obvious weaknesses or drawbacks in combat?

The answer is they wouldn't as even their skills as the party scout could easily be replaced by a Ranger, Druid or Bard who in addition to being able to sneak around, also gain access to a limited spell list ( and in the case of Druids an animal companion )which increases their usefulness for when Stealth isn't an option anymore.

Rogues however don't. All in all this could cause players to avoid the class completely since they don't really bring anything to the party they couldn't get elsewhere now and there's too many other flashier class options to pick from that'd be more useful.

Well you’re 8 years to late to the party, so we can definitely say you’re wrong on this one!

Rogues are doing fine in 5e, as others have noted.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Oh, it is not a record. I’ve necro’d a couple of threads over 10 years old!

I'm not sure if that is something to be proud of or not?

At any rate, it is a record for what I have seen.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I'm not sure if that is something to be proud of or not?

At any rate, it is a record for what I have seen.

Well it has to be about a record for 5e, it has only been around for 8 years!

 

[DND_Reborn]

Well it has to be about a record for 5e, it has only been around for 8 years!

Oh, good point!

So, set a record (or tied it at least) for 5E.

 

[Dausuul]

Holy cow.. this is insane! Ntm downright tragic. It really, really is since honestly, not to be overly dramatic here or anything folks, but this really could permanently ruin/cripple the Rogue class for good( or at least until a new edition comes along and undoes it).

The only thing the core Rogue class had going for it ( and I say this as someone who absolutely loves that class ) in terms of overall playability - ntm appeal- was its position as the parties resident skill monkey ( aka trap disarming, lockpicking etc ).

Take that away and there's practically no reason whatsoever to even play as a pure Rogue. They're just too weak to justify having in your party at all without that.

I mean they never really could fight on equal terms with pretty much any real combat class or they'd be instantly slaughtered, they don't get any spells, they have really poor hit dice, they can't wear heavy armor and overall they're just very squishy and easily crushed.

Sure they still get sneak attack damage( I hope anyways ) but even at higher levels it'll still never quite compare with a Wizards Fireball or the damage output of a raging barbarian equipped with a battle axe.

Especially once you consider that a Rogue usually has to get within squishing range to actually use it and with their low hit points and armor restrictions while sneaking, that can be a dangerous proposition.

Seriously though in a fantasy setting where dungeons are known to be filled with dangerous monsters, traps and treasure why would anyone bring along a Rogue when just about anyone can now disarm traps, look for hidden doors or pick locks, just as well as any thief - from a practical standpoint anyways- without their obvious weaknesses or drawbacks in combat?

The answer is they wouldn't as even their skills as the party scout could easily be replaced by a Ranger, Druid or Bard who in addition to being able to sneak around, also gain access to a limited spell list ( and in the case of Druids an animal companion )which increases their usefulness for when Stealth isn't an option anymore.

Rogues however don't. All in all this could cause players to avoid the class completely since they don't really bring anything to the party they couldn't get elsewhere now and there's too many other flashier class options to pick from that'd be more useful.

I have played rogues in 5E. They are doing just fine. Expertise and especially Reliable Talent are awesome. Being able to say "Does 25 make it?" before you even pick up a d20 is the best feeling.

Rogues are also far stronger in combat than in 3E and previous; it used to be that half the Monster Manual was immune to Sneak Attack, but now it works on everything, and Sneak Attack is also much easier to execute (all you need is an ally next to the target; no need for flanking, you can even do it at range). It hits the sweet spot, at least for me--you have to pay some attention to the battlefield, but you can almost always get your bonus damage if you do.

On defense, rogues have a number of tricks to stay alive. They remain vulnerable to being mobbed, but they have a 1/round ability to halve damage from one attack. They can also Disengage or Dodge as a bonus action (what in 3E would be a swift action), so getting out of a bad spot is much easier for them.

If you told me to play a rogue and asked me to pick the edition, I'd take 5E in a heartbeat. I played a 3E rogue once; there is no comparison, 5E is vastly better.