D&D 5E Where did Open Locks and Remove Traps go?

[Sir Brennen]

Didn't realize this was a necro'd thread when I saw the notification and expected this to be about the Critical Hits nerf, where Sneak Attack dice are no longer doubled.

So I'll just pretend that's the case

I think the Critical Hit change for Rogues will be offset by the Inspiration changes, since Rogues can use Inspiration to give themselves Advantage more often, and therefore more Sneak Attacks. This is especially true since other players can give their inspiration to the Rogue when they themselves roll a natural 20

 

[dave2008]

Holy cow.. this is insane! Ntm downright tragic. It really, really is since honestly, not to be overly dramatic here or anything folks, but this really could permanently ruin/cripple the Rogue class for good( or at least until a new edition comes along and undoes it).

Your just wrong about this. It has been going well for 8 years!

The only thing the core Rogue class had going for it ( and I say this as someone who absolutely loves that class ) in terms of overall playability - ntm appeal- was its position as the parties resident skill monkey ( aka trap disarming, lockpicking etc ).

Maybe older editions only had skills as a thing, but that is not true in 4e or 5e. You need to get up to speed on modern rogues.

PS they are still the skill monkeys too

Take that away and there's practically no reason whatsoever to even play as a pure Rogue. They're just too weak to justify having in your party at all without that.

I mean they never really could fight on equal terms with pretty much any real combat class or they'd be instantly slaughtered,

Clear you are not familiar with the 5e rogue. Rogues keep up with most classes in combat.

they don't get any spells, they have really poor hit dice, they can't wear heavy armor and overall they're just very squishy and easily crushed.

They have the same hit dice (d8) as the artificer, bard, cleric, druid, monk, & warlock (sorcerer & wizard have less. They also have Cunning Action and Uncanny Dodge to reduce damage beyond other classes.

Sure they still get sneak attack damage( I hope anyways )

Wait you don't even know they get sneak attack damage and can do so easily?

but even at higher levels it'll still never quite compare with a Wizards Fireball or the damage output of a raging barbarian equipped with a battle axe.

well it goes up to a bonus damage of 10d6 (fireball max is 14d6), and they can get that almost every round for the whole adventuring day. It is becoming rather clear you do not know what your talking about. So I think I will stop here.

 

[the Jester]

Holy cow.. this is insane! Ntm downright tragic. It really, really is since honestly, not to be overly dramatic here or anything folks, but this really could permanently ruin/cripple the Rogue class for good( or at least until a new edition comes along and undoes it).

The only thing the core Rogue class had going for it ( and I say this as someone who absolutely loves that class ) in terms of overall playability - ntm appeal- was its position as the parties resident skill monkey ( aka trap disarming, lockpicking etc ).

Take that away and there's practically no reason whatsoever to even play as a pure Rogue. They're just too weak to justify having in your party at all without that.

I mean they never really could fight on equal terms with pretty much any real combat class or they'd be instantly slaughtered, they don't get any spells, they have really poor hit dice, they can't wear heavy armor and overall they're just very squishy and easily crushed.

Sure they still get sneak attack damage( I hope anyways ) but even at higher levels it'll still never quite compare with a Wizards Fireball or the damage output of a raging barbarian equipped with a battle axe.

Especially once you consider that a Rogue usually has to get within squishing range to actually use it and with their low hit points and armor restrictions while sneaking, that can be a dangerous proposition.

Seriously though in a fantasy setting where dungeons are known to be filled with dangerous monsters, traps and treasure why would anyone bring along a Rogue when just about anyone can now disarm traps, look for hidden doors or pick locks, just as well as any thief - from a practical standpoint anyways- without their obvious weaknesses or drawbacks in combat?

The answer is they wouldn't as even their skills as the party scout could easily be replaced by a Ranger, Druid or Bard who in addition to being able to sneak around, also gain access to a limited spell list ( and in the case of Druids an animal companion )which increases their usefulness for when Stealth isn't an option anymore.

Rogues however don't. All in all this could cause players to avoid the class completely since they don't really bring anything to the party they couldn't get elsewhere now and there's too many other flashier class options to pick from that'd be more useful.

Forgive me for jumping to conclusions, but I am guessing you haven't played a rogue in 5e. They are BAD ASS. They are able to maneuver around the battlefield like nobody else, and they get sneak attack almost every round. Rogues are not at all weak in 5e. They haven't been since 3e, when whole classes of monsters were immune to sneak attack.

 

[ECMO3]

OK, so I'm probably dating myself here as a former 1e geek who is getting back into it at 5e... but one thing that stood out when I read through the 5e Players Handbook is that I didn't see the "classic" thief skills of Opening Locks and Finding / Removing Traps. Did I miss something? Were those elements removed from the game in a previous edition?

How do you handle locked chests or disarming traps without specific skills or proficiencies - are those just simple Intelligence / Dexterity ability checks, or Investigation / Perception proficiency checks?

This seems to devalue the classic thief / rogue character - it was previously indispensable and now seems entirely optional in a party.

It depends. Typically opening a lock or disarming a trap once you have found it then is a Dexterity check with theives tools proficiency if you have the tool and the proficiency. Occasionally it is a slight of hand check, allowing you to use the skill proficiency if you have that instead of the tool proficiency.

It might also be an intelligence check or rarely a wisdom check of some sort again with thieves tool proficiency if applicable.

No class is necessary in 5E, but Rogues are loads of fun. Arcane Trickster Rogues are one of my three favorite classes to play in the entire game. As a 1E veteran I can say the 5E Rogue is A LOT better and a lot more powerful. While it is true you can play without them, the same is true for fighters, wizards, clerics etc. You don't need any specific class in 5E. You can play an entire party of just Rogues and do just fine.

A 5E Rogue is a lot better than a 1E Rogue. Extra skills and expertise means that while other characters can do stuff like pick locks and disarm traps and sneak, but they can't do it nearly as well as you if you focus there with expertise. Alternatively you can take your expertise in Charisma skills, get a decent Charisma (14) and then you are a great face. You can take expertise in athletics and climb up and down walls and grapple and push opponents about as good as the Barbarian even though your strength is an 8 and since you get the basic thieves tool proficiency you can do that while still being able to pick locks!

In combat sneak attack is WAY better than 1E backstab and most subclasses have abilities that boost this further ..... and Arcane Tricksters get spells and a wicked cool mage hand that lets you pickpoket something from people in combat while also attacking. Out of combat, you can use the mage hand to disarm the trap from outside the room in case you fail. No one else can do those things .... not even a wizard and they can do almost anything in 5E!