D&D (2024) How do I disarm traps? Does Thieves' Tools do anything?

Well, no, because saying "the ineffable gods caused it" is the same as saying "the ineffable fairies caused it" or "my magical ineffable farts caused it." None of them have any truth value aside from personal belief.
In the imaginary worlds about which we are speaking they "the ineffable gods caused it" has the same truth value as any other piece of fiction: it's an utterance we can know to be false and pretend to be true.

Explicable fictional magic has no better truth value than inexplicable magic in fiction. At least not on grounds of any argument put forth so far. There was no consulting detective named Sherlock Holmes, but we can pretend there was. The species of snake that twined down the bell pull was one that isn't capable of doing so in the real world (it's a constrictor), but we can (and most folk do) pretend that it can. Inexplicable powers that intervene in the goings on of the world may well not exist in our real universe, but they are as true as Holmes or that snake in any fictional universe that includes them.

Dualistic metaphysics are just physics with imagination added. Which is fun!
To my reading dualistic metaphysics has prevailed for most of human history. One common form is belief in an ultimately inexplicable being (God) who intervenes in our universe. It's possible that you are taking my arguments as attempts to justify or prove that sort of thing to be really true outside of imaginary worlds. I'm not saying that: rather I am saying that "magic" as presented in games like D&D is just refluffed technology, and that an alternative approach that would be more like what magic was historically on Earth would need to contain inexplicable elements that would lead to unpredictability. I'm not defending that as true, I'm defending it as - were we to imagine it for our fictional world - truer to what magic historically was.

One way to consider that from your perspective might be to see that I'm saying that magic was historically nonsensensical, so that if we are to imagine magic as magic in our games it ought to be nonsensical in our imaginary world as well! That magic ought to be the antithesis of science: not predictably repeatable.
 

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Well, no, because saying "the ineffable gods caused it" is the same as saying "the ineffable fairies caused it" or "my magical ineffable farts caused it." None of them have any truth value aside from personal belief. Dualistic metaphysics are just physics with imagination added. Which is fun!
Do we really need to have this discussion for the next 20 pages? What good is going to come of it? What makes you think the other party is going to change their mind?
 

Do we really need to have this discussion for the next 20 pages? What good is going to come of it? What makes you think the other party is going to change their mind?
Sometimes we have these discussions for other people who read it instead of the person with whom we're arguing. Just because we cannot convince someone directly doesn't mean no one gains value from the discussion. ;-)
 

Sometimes we have these discussions for other people who read it instead of the person with whom we're arguing. Just because we cannot convince someone directly doesn't mean no one gains value from the discussion. ;-)
Are you advocating that an extended back and forth on a dualistic metaphysics vs a materialist approach in a thread on how to disarm traps is a worthwhile use of your time.

I guess, it takes all sorts.
 
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Do we really need to have this discussion for the next 20 pages? What good is going to come of it? What makes you think the other party is going to change their mind?
I'm enjoying the discussion, and do not see it as about changing my or my interlocutor's mind. It's simply an exchange of views that may or may not influence the formation of future views. I'm confident that I am on good ground, philosophically

It's right that one piece of fiction is no more true than another. It is a fact that "in Doyle's stories there was a consulting detective called Holmes" and an equal fact that "in my imaginary world magic is observable and inexplicable".​
It is right to say that given dualistic metaphysical commitments, something that is inexplicable can also have observable effects in the world. That seems more or less required for some theistic standpoints and ideas about consciousness.​
As to whether others agree, so far no one has engaged with my central argument. I've asserted that magic in the real world was inexplicable and unpredictable, not scientific. No one has refuted that. With that premise unchallenged, I go on to say that magic in a game would be more "realistic" were it inexplicable and unpredictable.

With regard to @Clint_L's objections, I'm not arguing that real world magic had observable effects... I'm arguing that game magic inspired by real world magic can in an imaginary game world have observable effects. I'm saying that magic-as-technology (reliable, predictable) is less like real world magic (i.e. a peculiar form of nonsense) than my proposal would be.
 
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Are you advocating that an extended back and forth on a dualistic metaphysics vs a materialist approach in a thread on how to disarm traps is a worthwhile use of your time.
Yes! I will go even further and say that there is no better use of time available to you at this moment, as you read my words.
 

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