D&D General This Makes No Sense: Re-Examining the 1e Bard

[Snarf Zagyg]

Heck, the 1E thief class, combined with the 1e DMG guidance on making their life miserable when they try to do their role in any but the most optimal conditions, is the opposite of many peoples' idea of fun.

It's my sincere belief that every single time that Gygax looked at the thief, he thought to himself, "Self, how can I nerf this class even harder? I want to beat it like a rented drum set."

Basically, Gygax felt about thieves the way I feel about bards- except he got to write the rules.

 

[Voadam]

So ... I think that the Bard is a terrible example.

If you want better examples from the past, I would offer the following:

1e: As much as I hate Unearthed Arcana, I'd argue that the Thief-Acrobat class in UA is where you should look for guidance for the proto-prestige class in 1e.

D&D (Basic): The Companion Set introduced class specializations for fighters starting at level 9 (IIRC) based- the Knight, Paladin, and the Avenger.

In addition to those 1e Dragonlance Adventures has Knights of Solamnia that require going through two levels of cavalier variant Knights of the Crown to become Knights of the Sword, and then to qualify for Knights of the Rose you need to have gained at least two levels as a Knight of the Sword, in addition to other requirements.

Knights of the Sword Game Data
Minimum Requirements: No character starts out as a Knight of the Sword. Characters can only attempt to enter this class after first rising to 2d level as a Knight of the Crown and having sufficient experience points to gain 3d level there. At that point, the character must speak of his intent to become a Knight of the Sword to a Knight of that order who is no less than 7th level. The candidate must also have the listed minimums in all the following statistics in order to qualify for the Order of the Sword.
Sword Knight Minimum Scores
Strength 12
Intelligence 9
Wisdom 13
Dexterity 9
Constitution 10
Charisma None
The petitioning knight must then be brought before a Knightly Council at which a Sword Knight of no less than 7th level is one of the three presiding Knights. The Knight's name is then brought up before the Knighthood. If there is no question of honor brought up about the Knight during a Knightly Council in which his petition is heard, then the character is assigned a quest to show his worthiness and his dedication to the Order of the Sword.
The quest must include the following elements: a journey of no less than 500 miles and 30 days. three tests of the Knight's wisdom, one test of his generosity. one test of his compassion, the restoration of something that was lost, and single combat with an evil opponent of at least the same level as the candidate. The candidate must be victorious in this combat while demonstrating the ideals of honor and courage (note that this does not necessarily mean killing the foe). The knight can enlist the aid of anyone he wishes to complete the quest so long as he maintains the ideals of the Knighthood (i.e., does not further the cause of evil). The exact form of the quest is ultimately up to the OM, but it must include these elements.

Interestingly knights of the sword start getting cleric spells at level 6 and even have level 7 (max cleric spell level in 1e) at level 15. Knights of the Rose get no spells themselves and prestige out of Knights of the Sword before gaining spells.

 

[Voadam]

It's my sincere belief that every single time that Gygax looked at the thief, he thought to himself, "Self, how can I nerf this class even harder? I want to beat it like a rented drum set."

Basically, Gygax felt about thieves the way I feel about bards- except he got to write the rules.

Which is weird because he also seemed to really like them narratively. He was a big Lieber fan and made his big protagonist for the Gord the Rogue novel series an ultra competent Gray Mouser type thief.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Which is weird because he also seemed to really like them narratively. He was a big Lieber fan and made his big protagonist for the Gord the Rogue novel series an ultra competent Gray Mouser type thief.

I know!

In fairness, consistency wasn't one of Gygax's hallmarks. But the sadism he directed toward the poor thief was so pronounced it qualified as a fetish.

...not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[Voadam]

All I can think of for Gygaz and thieves is someone in his campaigns was amazingly effective as a thief and he felt he needed to counter them, hard. Or they were super annoying to him and these were rulings made in pique that then stuck. I have heard zero stories along those lines though.

Alternately maybe nobody ever played them in his games and he just kept throwing in mechanics for every realism consideration that he could think of for spoiling backstabs or hiding in shadows and such.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

All I can think of for Gygaz and thieves is someone in his campaigns was amazingly effective as a thief and he felt he needed to counter them, hard. Or they were super annoying to him and these were rulings made in pique that then stuck. I have heard zero stories along those lines though.

Alternately maybe nobody ever played them in his games and he just kept throwing in mechanics for every realism consideration that he could think of for spoiling backstabs or hiding in shadows and such.

You know what? I think I've done some pretty deep dives into the history of the thief class before, and also Gygax's antagonism toward it (which was well documented in writing)* ...

but I don't think I ever came across a particular source for his antipathy ... naw ... hatred for the class. Maybe I'll do some research on that and see if it's been sourced, but if someone else has a source on it, feel free to save me some time!


*Usually in the context of the so-called Great Thief Debate of the '70s.

 

[RhaezDaevan]

So ... I think that the Bard is a terrible example.

If you want better examples from the past, I would offer the following:

1e: As much as I hate Unearthed Arcana, I'd argue that the Thief-Acrobat class in UA is where you should look for guidance for the proto-prestige class in 1e.

D&D (Basic): The Companion Set introduced class specializations for fighters starting at level 9 (IIRC) based- the Knight, Paladin, and the Avenger.

I've read both of those before and do find them interesting. Never seen either in practice though.

Given the lack of higher level abilities for the regular thief, I've wondered about the Thief-acrobat being folded into the Thief, but only if single classed (getting the benefits of both). I also think the monk should get some acrobat abilities, based on martial arts movies I've seen.

 

[RhaezDaevan]

In addition to those 1e Dragonlance Adventures has Knights of Solamnia that require going through two levels of cavalier variant Knights of the Crown to become Knights of the Sword, and then to qualify for Knights of the Rose you need to have gained at least two levels as a Knight of the Sword, in addition to other requirements.

Knights of the Sword Game Data
Minimum Requirements: No character starts out as a Knight of the Sword. Characters can only attempt to enter this class after first rising to 2d level as a Knight of the Crown and having sufficient experience points to gain 3d level there. At that point, the character must speak of his intent to become a Knight of the Sword to a Knight of that order who is no less than 7th level. The candidate must also have the listed minimums in all the following statistics in order to qualify for the Order of the Sword.
Sword Knight Minimum Scores
Strength 12
Intelligence 9
Wisdom 13
Dexterity 9
Constitution 10
Charisma None
The petitioning knight must then be brought before a Knightly Council at which a Sword Knight of no less than 7th level is one of the three presiding Knights. The Knight's name is then brought up before the Knighthood. If there is no question of honor brought up about the Knight during a Knightly Council in which his petition is heard, then the character is assigned a quest to show his worthiness and his dedication to the Order of the Sword.
The quest must include the following elements: a journey of no less than 500 miles and 30 days. three tests of the Knight's wisdom, one test of his generosity. one test of his compassion, the restoration of something that was lost, and single combat with an evil opponent of at least the same level as the candidate. The candidate must be victorious in this combat while demonstrating the ideals of honor and courage (note that this does not necessarily mean killing the foe). The knight can enlist the aid of anyone he wishes to complete the quest so long as he maintains the ideals of the Knighthood (i.e., does not further the cause of evil). The exact form of the quest is ultimately up to the OM, but it must include these elements.

Interestingly knights of the sword start getting cleric spells at level 6 and even have level 7 (max cleric spell level in 1e) at level 15. Knights of the Rose get no spells themselves and prestige out of Knights of the Sword before gaining spells.

It's been a while since I've read those class descriptions. Remind me what a Knight of the Rose gets that's worth giving up spell access? Is it at-will powers?

 

[Umbran]

... the design problems are just so deep that even if square the circle of all the other rules, it's just a bad design.

And from this, we might learn that while it might be important, design isn't everything.