Where did that tiny centipede go?

[Noumenon]

If a tiny centipede familiar sneaks into camp at night and delivers a touch spell, does everyone automatically know where he is to squash him? It seems like it would be hard to see him, being just a little insect. There should be some use of the Hide skill to let him get away. I guess shadowy illumination counts as concealment, but the rules say you can't hide with someone observing you, or at least they know where you went. So does that mean if the centipede can get around the corner, everyone will know where he went, but they won't actually see him if they can't beat his hide check? Of course with four characters one of them is gonna make the check for sure.

 

[juz4kix]

I think it would require a search check instead of a spot check. If it is outside in a grass area, i'd give the centipede umber bonuses to hide.

 

[irdeggman]

If a tiny centipede familiar sneaks into camp at night and delivers a touch spell, does everyone automatically know where he is to squash him? It seems like it would be hard to see him, being just a little insect. There should be some use of the Hide skill to let him get away. I guess shadowy illumination counts as concealment, but the rules say you can't hide with someone observing you, or at least they know where you went. So does that mean if the centipede can get around the corner, everyone will know where he went, but they won't actually see him if they can't beat his hide check? Of course with four characters one of them is gonna make the check for sure.

The rules do not say such things about hide.


From the SRD (use the Rules Compendium for better and mor up to date rules on Hid and Spot but this works well enough for discussion)

HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.

If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Hide checks.
A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17thlevel ranger can do this even while being observed.

Basically a hide check is always opposed by a spot check.

Smaller creatures get bonuses to their hide check and larger ones get penalties.

You don't need to make a hide check when you have total concealment since you can't be seen anyway. Going behind a wall provides total concealment in this case.

If you have any concealment you can attempt a hide check (with all modifers that are appropriate) - if successful you are considered invisible (see Rules Compendium pg 92)

 

[Noumenon]

So basically, here's what Hide does; it turns cover or concealment into total concealment. Much like being invisible, except invisibility is better for escaping in that you can turn invisible and then move, while with Hide you have to move first [or not - see below]. So for example, if you move behind a tree and Hide, they pretty much know where you are, what square you hid in. So they can sit there and attack into that square until they make their miss chance, and you can't really move.

Wait a second! I just realized that unlike most skill checks, which take a standard action or a move action, maybe you actually use Hide as a free action while moving. That means "You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty" doesn't mean "move, then Hide," it means "move while you hide." Am I right?

It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

If it's possible to hide while charging, that means you can hide as part of your regular movement. Just like you can move silently as part of movement. In that case, as long as your movement path took you behind any kind of cover, concealment, or tree you could "turn invisible" from that point forward, and get away easily. Except for the fact that you have to beat 4 spot checks (the Listen checks shouldn't be that tough if you move half speed, since invisible creatures get +20 to move silently then).

It seems like my difficulties with the hide skill were based on 1) thinking it was a standard action and 2) thinking "you can't hide while people are observing you, even casually" meant "You can't hide after someone has seen you." But you can, as long as you move through some cover or concealment.

 

[Corsair]

Keep in mind that a tiny centipede is still the size of a CAT.

 

[Noumenon]

I wanted it to be a Diminutive centipede but there is no Reduce spell any more and I am not giving a centipede a psionic tattoo. If I give him a Small master (a derro?) the DMG would let me give him a Diminutive familiar. If that's not cheating.

 

[irdeggman]

So basically, here's what Hide does; it turns cover or concealment into total concealment. Much like being invisible, except invisibility is better for escaping in that you can turn invisible and then move, while with Hide you have to move first [or not - see below]. So for example, if you move behind a tree and Hide, they pretty much know where you are, what square you hid in. So they can sit there and attack into that square until they make their miss chance, and you can't really move.

Doesn't matter. Once yo successfuly hide they have lsot track of you. See the hiding in plain sight special ability that some classes have.

Wait a second! I just realized that unlike most skill checks, which take a standard action or a move action, maybe you actually use Hide as a free action while moving. That means "You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty" doesn't mean "move, then Hide," it means "move while you hide." Am I right?

Success on the reality check. Yes that is how it works - hide is normally made as part of another action - just like MS.

If it's possible to hide while charging, that means you can hide as part of your regular movement. Just like you can move silently as part of movement. In that case, as long as your movement path took you behind any kind of cover, concealment, or tree you could "turn invisible" from that point forward, and get away easily. Except for the fact that you have to beat 4 spot checks (the Listen checks shouldn't be that tough if you move half speed, since invisible creatures get +20 to move silently then).

Nope.

All of your actions are resolved on your turn in the initiative order. Any difficult terrain you pass through applies to the entire action.

If you start you movement in plain sight you can't make a hide check later during part of your movement. Merely moving past a tree does not provide concealment.

It seems like my difficulties with the hide skill were based on 1) thinking it was a standard action and 2) thinking "you can't hide while people are observing you, even casually" meant "You can't hide after someone has seen you." But you can, as long as you move through some cover or concealment.

Mostly correct.

You have to basically start your turn in an area with concealment in order to make a hide check. Unless you make a successful bluff check to cause a distraction allowing you to make a hide check to move to an area that provides concealment.

 

[Noumenon]

First of all, irdeggman, I really appreciate the time you've taken to explain this to me because adding Hide to combat is going to be a new innovation I can bring to my group. I think it will make terrain more important and make rogues neater. I gave you XP.

All of your actions are resolved on your turn in the initiative order. Any difficult terrain you pass through applies to the entire action.

Not sure I know where you're getting the principle from... for example deep water is difficult terrain, but none of the effects like slow movement or hampered invisibility apply to my movement before I enter the water. For an analogy, I don't have to be in deep water at the start of my turn to make a Swim check -- do I have to be in concealment at the start of my turn to make a Hide check?

 

[irdeggman]

First of all, irdeggman, I really appreciate the time you've taken to explain this to me because adding Hide to combat is going to be a new innovation I can bring to my group. I think it will make terrain more important and make rogues neater. I gave you XP.



Not sure I know where you're getting the principle from... for example deep water is difficult terrain, but none of the effects like slow movement or hampered invisibility apply to my movement before I enter the water. For an analogy, I don't have to be in deep water at the start of my turn to make a Swim check -- do I have to be in concealment at the start of my turn to make a Hide check?

I'm sorry - movement (i.e., terrain penalties) are resolved on a square by square basis.

In oder to charge you must have a target and line of sight to that target with nothing (including diffiuclt terrain) blocking the path . PHB 154


I still think you need to start in an area of concealment in order to hide - unless using the bluff concept. Remember that if you don't have concelament then you are being observed and thus the skill use is (normally) forbidden.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I noticed one (possibly) incorrect thing above, about swinging into the square behind a tree.

If you hide behind cover, but observers move so that you no longer have cover, you're no longer hidden. So if you hide behind a tree, the only way someone can swing and swing into that square and have to make miss checks is if you still have cover (or concealment). In other words, to use cover to hide, you need to have cover. Not to get all tautological.

Hiding without the benefit of cover or concealment is what Hide in Plain Sight is all about.