Where do we go now...

[Glyfair]

And it really doesn't come even remotely close to my own experiences using classless systems, even in those campaigns that have included some 'optimiser' types.

I was about to same the same thing as scribble. I have played a number of "classless" system and have seen it often, but not always.

I typically see it controlled by two things. First, is the players themselves. If you don't have optimizers, or the group tends to frown on that sort of thing, it's not a big issue. The other are campaign rules to limit the customization of the characters (Champions was big on that).

However, in my experience the more options for players, the more hooks for super min/max optimizers to dominate the feel of the game. It's inevitable that the options will be there, even if they aren't used.

 

[op1983]

I like the way Star Wars: Saga edition did classes. There are base classes then specialization trees. So you build your character to do what you want your character to do. You can call it whatever you want based on the background and skills the character has.

I was really hoping 4th would be similar, but there is just enough variety to keep me happy and more books are coming out soon so I'm happy.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The issue I've seen with classless systems is that once the "optimizers" get involved it turns out there really ARE classes in the game. There are always certain powers that work "best" together.... Unfortunately this ends up with people having things like magical robotic monkies with angel wings and vampire teeth that can use psionics, in a game about WWII fighter pilots..

This hurts the people that want a semi "believable" world...

So we have class based systems that kind of help "lock" a concept into place We have pilot classes, mechanics, soldiers, and their powers all enforce the idea of WWII fighter pilots...

But this hurts the optimizer's fun because there's not enough to tinker with.

So we have games like 3e and 4e that start with a class based system to reinforce a coherent "theme" but put in lots of parts the optimizers can tinker with.

That's why class less system must work like Torg.

You can be a Tarkhold Demon with bat wings, cyberware and magical abilities, or you can be some dude with a skateboard, or an elven mage. They can all fight alongside and each will show off his strength and weaknesses.

Of course, you don't run WWII Pilot campaigns in Torg. You wander (wilder?) through all genres, epochs and worlds...