Where have all the heroes gone?

[delericho]

But this has got me thinking why is so hard now a days to find a game where the players want to be heroes not just powermad looters who use their power to further their own agenda and gods help the poor villagers. The other players have said the same thing that they to are tired of playing in a game filled with anti heroes.

Is it just in our area that this is common thing or is it more wide spread?

I think it's a fairly widespeard problem, but not a problem afflicting too many gamers. By which I mean, if you take a large sample of players, you'll probably only find a small number who absolutely have to play the evil character. But, if you take a 'standard' group, there's a fairly good chance you'll get one such. And, of course, 'one such' is all it really takes.

I wouldn't mind, but so many of the players who just have to play an evil character are just really bad at it. They want to play that alignment as some sort of wish-fulfilment excuse to run off on a mad rampage.

In D&D, I think I've only seen one well-played evil character, and that was a case where the player didn't set out to play an evil character as such, but rather things just fell that way. The character was a Cleric of the dwarven gof of justice, and he didn't think twice about the use of torture, draconian punishments, and the like. So, the character was Evil, even though he was fighting against the other forces of Evil in the game. The character was also totally loyal to the rest of the group, well-respected in the society around him, and generally a fun character all around.

I have, however, seen well-played characters in other games (that don't feature alignment) that would have been Evil if assigned an alignment. There just seems to be something about writing that word on the character sheet that messes with their players. (Much like writing 'Lawful Good' affects people. Honestly, how often do you see a character who isn't a Paladin who holds the LG alignment? And yet it should be the most common alignment amongst Dwarves, and not exactly uncommon elsewhere.)

So I tell him that maybe this is one campaign he should just sit out and it is not his cup of tea.

Probably the best thing to do.

 

[Elf Witch]

In my experience this sort of mercenary behaviour arises because too many DMs use the "you are heroes" line as an excuse to abuse the player's characters. I've seen to many times where DM's gloss over (or outright ignore) the good (non-monetary/treasure) things that happen to heroes after they save the town/princess/world. I've been in too many games where our character's risk their lives and the merchants in town still charge them triple price because we're outsiders, where the local sheriff still gives them grief at every instance, where the villains never turn over a new leaf, etc, etc. It gets discouraging after a while being forced into the masochistic hero role.

That does not sound like fun and I have never had the displeasure of having a DM pull that on me.

In the games where we have been heroes and saved the day we have been treated like heroes. With the all the perks "no your gold is no good here" to parades, statues in the park. You get the idea.

This goes back to my thread clueless DMs. DMs can control somewhat how characters behave by the rewardss and consquences of the game.

If you want your players to play heroes then reward them for behaving like heroes don't punish them.

 

[billd91]

I've seen to many times where DM's gloss over (or outright ignore) the good (non-monetary/treasure) things that happen to heroes after they save the town/princess/world. I've been in too many games where our character's risk their lives and the merchants in town still charge them triple price because we're outsiders, where the local sheriff still gives them grief at every instance, where the villains never turn over a new leaf, etc, etc. It gets discouraging after a while being forced into the masochistic hero role.

For anyone looking for remedies for this sort of gaming, the Shackled City campaign has a few built into it. There's an important shop that may start offering discounts and there are ways to gain permanent diplomacy bonuses with the locals. It's a good adventuring campaign to mine for ideas.

 

[Elf Witch]

I would like to add that I assume when I am playing a hero that good things will come my way it is a game after all.

The King asks for help my answer will of course wht do you need, not what will you give me. Because usually my character is not in it for montery rewards.

But as a player I will be a little disappointed if after helping the king I don't get any goodies.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I would like to add that I assume when I am playing a hero that good things will come my way it is a game after all.

The King asks for help my answer will of course wht do you need, not what will you give me. Because usually my character is not in it for montery rewards.

But as a player I will be a little disappointed if after helping the king I don't get any goodies.

Me too. And I tried bringing this up to one of my players. He got all huffy about it and belched out some rant about required levels of treasure, blah blah <metagaming> blah blah. Duh! I'm the DM. I KNOW you need goodies to survive and face the challenges I have in store. I don't expect you to turn down rewards or give all your treasure to charity. Just for once, could you play a character that doesn't ask what the reward is before accepting the task. And not try to squeeze every copper out of an encounter by taking the orc's underwear!

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Me too. And I tried bringing this up to one of my players. He got all huffy about it and belched out some rant about required levels of treasure, blah blah <metagaming> blah blah. Duh! I'm the DM. I KNOW you need goodies to survive and face the challenges I have in store. I don't expect you to turn down rewards or give all your treasure to charity. Just for once, could you play a character that doesn't ask what the reward is before accepting the task. And not try to squeeze every copper out of an encounter by taking the orc's underwear!

I can recall a reverse sentiment from a game I played in:

Just for once, could an employer actually pay us. Not turn out to be a vampire, welch, get bankrupted, abducted or flee the country. And could something we fight, just once, have gear. Of any sort.*

A year or two of games like that does leave an impression. It takes me a real effort of will nowadays not to ask 'how much?', generally followed by 'what, each?'. And - is the orcs underwear in the right size?

*having said this - it was fun gaming, just generally 'gritty' or something.

 

[waterdhavian]

I hear you. I have been in so many games that have the characters being only a step better than the evil they fight.

However, I am currently in a Red Hand of Doom game and although we are reluctant at times, we are the heroes we should be. Our warforged Artificer needs some coaxing sometimes, but he usually comes around.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I agree with you that this is a common trend,

Have you guys ever heard about Gygax's adventures? Practically none of those guys even qualified as neutral. Robilar, Mordie etc werent nice folks or working towards redemption. This is not a new trend.

 

[sckeener]

I play anti-heroes, a lot. The true type...not the villain type as pointed out above by Vyvyan Basterd.

I agree that the player is wanting to play a villain, not an anti-hero, and does not have any place in that campaign.

I think many players don't want to play goodie-goodie heroes because, like Abraxas mentioned above, they feel like they get rail roaded or gimped (loot) by the DM.

I dislike those sort of players or DMs....too selfish...too mean.

The one rule I have in my games, players can't backstab players. I don't care if they do that to NPCs...I've got an infinite supply of NPCs....

my problem in playing an anti-hero is usually the DM/players don't want them in the game...I understand characters not trusting an anti-hero....but the players and DM should trust each other.

 

[Corsair]

Here's what I hate...

Me: The king's son has gone missing in the Swamp of Evil Nastiness. The general call for adventurers goes out....

Players: How much will the king pay us to get him back?

Can't they go out and do good deeds for the sake of doing good deeds and worry about rewards as a secondary concern?

My players are all WAAAAY too mercenary. For some reason, this happens only in D&D, however. In, say, Exalted, they're all about going out and doing good.

I may be a do gooder, but adventuring is dangerous and specialized business. I expect to be well compensated for risking my life to rescue that prince. Just because some human wears a crown, it doesn't make him any more important, especially if I am an elf, dwarf, or kobold who isn't actually one of his subjects.

And all that being said, the king's own people down the road need more help fending off the goblins attacking their village. A village of 100 people I've never met is more important to me as a do gooder than one person. An unfortunate fact of do-goodery.

So Mr. King, explain to me again why I should leave those hundred people to fend for themselves and go looking for your one misplaced kid, who is probably in a much more dangerous place (if he wasn't, you would have sent your soldiers, and not called up me).