D&D 4E Where the break between pro and anti 4e is

[The Thayan Menace]

Logos!

Using game rules as narrative devices in this manner seems wrong on a fundamental level to players and GMs who value immersion more than game play or narrative elements.

Agreed. 4E will probably provide more options during combat, but it also appears to limit campaign customization by marrying specific aesthetics with its rules.

-Samir

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Sophia!

It is virtually impossible to create a game that adequately performs the jobs that both of us need a game to perform.

Aye, there's the rub. IMHO 3.0/3.5 did just that.

-Samir

 

[Campbell]

Aye, there's the rub. IMHO 3.0/3.5 did just that.

-Samir

I disagree. I found 3rd Edition tactically satisfying, but it did not allow for a satisfying degree of player narrative control as far as I am concerned. Some supplemental material helped, but I ultimately stopped running D&D games for exactly this reason. Perhaps we should continue this discussion in a separate thread.

 

[KarinsDad]

One concern I have is a combination of two things:

1) Every PC gets a new abillity at each level. While this has historically been fine for players who want to play complex PCs, it's going to be difficult for some people like my wife whose 10th level PC right now has about 5 main abilities and she sometimes even gets confused over those. Not every player is as comfortable with the game system as most of the readers of ENWorld. She plays to socialize, not to remember 600 pages of PHB and DMG rules (granted, spell casters have fewer combat spells in 4E, but rogues and fighters have more abilities).

2) The synergies of all of these different abilities. In the past, a handful of spells would be cast each combat and the group had to take into account a half dozen or so synergies from them. With the new edition and virtually every class having ways to throw multiple synergies into the mix every combat, it might become a bookkeeping nightmare. What really concerned me was the article that showed that it was easy to put a bunch of tokens and pins on the board to represent all of these different new conditions.


As one example, there have been hundreds of threads discussing the 3E Dodge and the fact that it was so difficult to remember to use it every round and to remember which target the Dodge was against and DMs houseruled it right and left.

4E came up with Marks which are similar mechanically. The player will have to remember to use his Mark and remember which NPC his Mark affects.

I cannot believe WotC did not take into account the pages and pages of complaints about Dodge from 3E and used virtually the same mechanic for 4E Mark. It seems like they totally missed the boat here.

 

[Khairn]

Ferratus, that is a very insightful list and does a good job of clearly qualifying the concerns that many players have about 4E. Most of my other concerns are less specific and have more to do with the perception of how WotC has mismanaged (IMO) their customers. As such its much more personal, and less "factual".

I understand that the changes they are making will have a detrimental impact for folks with your play priorities. I advocate these changes only because I'm a selfish git who wants to see a game that gels with my own tastes.

You may be a selfish git, but you're honest and bathe the reasons for much of the anti-4E sentiment in a clear light. And I respect you for it, Sir Git.

WotC has taken 4E in a direction that does not specifically support or even follow the "classic" D&D game-play paradigm. I almost wish WotC would just admit that type of "classic" game play is not where their future market will be. That way those players who want to keep playing that style of game can move on and stop their hope that WotC will change the game.

 

[The Little Raven]

WotC has taken 4E in a direction that does not specifically support or even follow the "classic" D&D game-play paradigm.

And what "classic" game-play paradigm would that be? Because the most classic, kill dudes and steal their stuff, is still strong and kickin'.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

One concern I have is a combination of two things:

1) Every PC gets a new abillity at each level.

The key is that some of these abilities are replacing older abilities, not just added on top of them. I'm guessing each character will peak with maybe 10-15 powers available, including dailies.

2) The synergies of all of these different abilities. In the past, a handful of spells would be cast each combat and the group had to take into account a half dozen or so synergies from them. With the new edition and virtually every class having ways to throw multiple synergies into the mix every combat, it might become a bookkeeping nightmare. What really concerned me was the article that showed that it was easy to put a bunch of tokens and pins on the board to represent all of these different new conditions.


As one example, there have been hundreds of threads discussing the 3E Dodge and the fact that it was so difficult to remember to use it every round and to remember which target the Dodge was against and DMs houseruled it right and left.

4E came up with Marks which are similar mechanically. The player will have to remember to use his Mark and remember which NPC his Mark affects.

I cannot believe WotC did not take into account the pages and pages of complaints about Dodge from 3E and used virtually the same mechanic for 4E Mark. It seems like they totally missed the boat here.

I think WotC figured that the problem with Dodge was that it was such a dinky bonus that it was easy to forget. But I definitely see your point, and I'll admit that I thought the warlock curse and ranger quarry were a bit gratuitous (I guess EVERYBODY needs a "mark" to keep track of in 4e!)

 

[Vegepygmy]

I cannot believe WotC did not take into account the pages and pages of complaints about Dodge from 3E and used virtually the same mechanic for 4E Mark.

QFT.

 

[FadedC]

1) Every PC gets a new abillity at each level. While this has historically been fine for players who want to play complex PCs, it's going to be difficult for some people like my wife whose 10th level PC right now has about 5 main abilities and she sometimes even gets confused over those. Not every player is as comfortable with the game system as most of the readers of ENWorld. She plays to socialize, not to remember 600 pages of PHB and DMG rules (granted, spell casters have fewer combat spells in 4E, but rogues and fighters have more abilities).

For what it matters there is some evidence that you only get new powers on certain levels, although the actual progression is still a bit unclear.

As one example, there have been hundreds of threads discussing the 3E Dodge and the fact that it was so difficult to remember to use it every round and to remember which target the Dodge was against and DMs houseruled it right and left.

4E came up with Marks which are similar mechanically. The player will have to remember to use his Mark and remember which NPC his Mark affects.

I cannot believe WotC did not take into account the pages and pages of complaints about Dodge from 3E and used virtually the same mechanic for 4E Mark. It seems like they totally missed the boat here.

In all fairness there is a huge difference between remembering to give an enemy -1 to hit to you, and remembering to give him -2 to hit the whole party and 8+ damage every time he attacks somebody. The second is just a teeny bit more major. That's like comparing ray of frost to cone of cold.

 

[The Little Raven]

In all fairness there is a huge difference between remembering to give an enemy -1 to hit to you, and remembering to give him -2 to hit the whole party and 8+ damage every time he attacks somebody. The second is just a teeny bit more major. That's like comparing ray of frost to cone of cold.

Also, we've seen that marking is a very effective way for the Defender to perform his role, thereby making it a much more important ability than Dodge ever was. Also, you don't have to set it each round, separate of all other actions (except with the paladin's ability), since when you successfully hit someone as a fighter, you can choose to mark them.

And it also has abilities that key off of it, another thing which makes it easier to remember (since it's so important) than Dodge.