D&D 4E Where the break between pro and anti 4e is

[KarinsDad]

In all fairness there is a huge difference between remembering to give an enemy -1 to hit to you, and remembering to give him -2 to hit the whole party and 8+ damage every time he attacks somebody. The second is just a teeny bit more major. That's like comparing ray of frost to cone of cold.

So, is it your contention that players will not forget to do this because it is more important than Dodge? Is it your contention that when they have marked one foe and he falls, they won't forget to mark a different foe the next round? Is it your contention that many players won't use tokens or other markers to help them remember this level of bookkeeping because it is so important that they will rarely forget?

 

[Kobu]

One concern I have is a combination of two things:

1) Every PC gets a new abillity at each level. While this has historically been fine for players who want to play complex PCs, it's going to be difficult for some people like my wife whose 10th level PC right now has about 5 main abilities and she sometimes even gets confused over those. Not every player is as comfortable with the game system as most of the readers of ENWorld. She plays to socialize, not to remember 600 pages of PHB and DMG rules (granted, spell casters have fewer combat spells in 4E, but rogues and fighters have more abilities).

2) The synergies of all of these different abilities. In the past, a handful of spells would be cast each combat and the group had to take into account a half dozen or so synergies from them. With the new edition and virtually every class having ways to throw multiple synergies into the mix every combat, it might become a bookkeeping nightmare. What really concerned me was the article that showed that it was easy to put a bunch of tokens and pins on the board to represent all of these different new conditions.


As one example, there have been hundreds of threads discussing the 3E Dodge and the fact that it was so difficult to remember to use it every round and to remember which target the Dodge was against and DMs houseruled it right and left.

4E came up with Marks which are similar mechanically. The player will have to remember to use his Mark and remember which NPC his Mark affects.

I cannot believe WotC did not take into account the pages and pages of complaints about Dodge from 3E and used virtually the same mechanic for 4E Mark. It seems like they totally missed the boat here.

I believe the total number of powers, even at level 30, will not be too large to manage. Later powers will replace earlier ones.

The bookkeeping for conditions may be overwhelming at first, but it has to be better than tracking 5 or so different durations per character. I think groups will adapt with poker chips under minis and such.

The mark thing...yeah, that's not something I thought D&D needed. I think someone liked their hunter in WoW a little too much. You can use a token for that of course, but it brings back painful memories of Dodge. It's weird too that they made listen, spot, and searching for traps all passive, yet are making players declare marks every round. I already think I will tell players to assume you are marking an enemy if it is not sitting behind another enemy. Is there any reason they would not do so or their characters would forget? I really doubt it.


My concerns are--

1) There was no general public playtest. I managed to see the problem with the Paladin's mark in the first moment I read about it. We have heard from "celebrity" playtesters after the NDA was lowered, but where is everyone else? Also, the RPGA players are not in any way typical from my experience, nor are playgroups centered around Wizards employees. I predict my group will find a dozen exploitable rules with the first few games. If Wizards' track record holds, only a few of those holes will ever be acknowledged before fifth edition.

2) The designers at Wizards belong to the Japanese school of language acquisition--it doesn't matter if you use a word correctly as long as it sounds cool. From warlord to chain mail, from exploits to feats, from misused real world mythology to goofy power names, Wizards loves to bungle the common understanding of words. I wish there was an old school newspaper editor on their staff who could cross out these things and tell them, "I think you mean to use this word instead." It's not game killing, but these things forever grate and it sucks bringing in new people and have them wrinkle their noses when trying to explain D&D-isms.

I started out with the "white box" edition, but I love the evolution of the game and was thrilled at the announcement of 4th. However, I am starting to see how the grand schemes are not going to live up to my expectations.

 

[The Little Raven]

So, is it your contention that players will not forget to do this because it is more important than Dodge?

Yeah. I don't see complaints about rogues constantly forgetting their sneak attack (an integral part of the class, but a situational ability), so I don't see why the mark is more difficult (and if it is, it's from players that would forget half their spells as a wizard anyhow).

Is it your contention that when they have marked one foe and he falls, they won't forget to mark a different foe the next round?

Absolutely. One is paired with any attack, so any successful hit gives the fighter the opportunity to mark that target. No different than having to remember to add in bonus damage from other effects. The other is a spell-like ability, no different than a wizard remembering to cast bestow curse or something on the target, especially given it's advantage in combat (-2 to attack, 1d8 radiant damage for not attacking me).

Is it your contention that many players won't use tokens or other markers to help them remember this level of bookkeeping because it is so important that they will rarely forget?

If they can remember their character's name and what they did in last week's session, I don't find it silly to expect them to remember when they've marked a target within the last 5 minutes.

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

Kobu, did you mean to sound bigoted? I may just be ignorant, but talking about the Japanese school of language aquisition like that sounds racist. What is you point.

 

[Mkhaiwati]

Good list by the OP. My own reason is that I prefer a more... (I can't remember all the words for it) realistic, simulationist, whatever style of gameplay. Not that 3.x did it well, either, but I have all those books and don't really want to spend more money. 4e has gone a step farther away from what I like to play. You can call it war-gamey, MMO related, or whatever, it just has too much fantastic, little realism for my taste.

It is a matter of style.

 

[KarinsDad]

2) The designers at Wizards belong to the Japanese school of language acquisition--it doesn't matter if you use a word correctly as long as it sounds cool.

I think the number one word that they misuse at WotC is "cool".

They have made some fairly large claims about speed of play and cool abilities, etc. And, many of the designers are very creative people.

But, they don't seem to have many people on the design team attempting to put brakes on the creativity. If it's a cool idea, but not balanced, it's actually the opposite of cool.

WotC discussed balance at all levels, but I'm seeing some game elements (like the Paladin's mark) that jumps out right away as unbalanced (too potent, or whatever else one wants to call it).

Balance appears to fall by the wayside to cool.

And, this happens in many tactically cool game systems. Magic the Gathering for one. I cannot think of a single edition of that where people didn't find the synergy problems with a new edition within a matter of weeks, even though the designers "playtested it".

 

[FadedC]

So, is it your contention that players will not forget to do this because it is more important than Dodge? Is it your contention that when they have marked one foe and he falls, they won't forget to mark a different foe the next round? Is it your contention that many players won't use tokens or other markers to help them remember this level of bookkeeping because it is so important that they will rarely forget?

Hmm...well pretty much. It's not like I ever saw fighters forget to use power attack, and that was another "fiddly" ability like dodge.

 

[The Little Raven]

misused real world mythology to goofy power names

Gorgon and Medusa.
Mordenkainen's Lucubration.

D&D has always butchered mythology, horribly, and had goofy power names.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hmm...well pretty much. It's not like I ever saw fighters forget to use power attack, and that was another "fiddly" ability like dodge.

I have.

I've seen players forget to flank, move in weird directions, move through threatened areas although it was easy to not do so, etc.

The more tactical rules there are, the more there is to remember and the more there is to forget.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Kobu, did you mean to sound bigoted? I may just be ignorant, but talking about the Japanese school of language aquisition like that sounds racist. What is you point.

Nothing rascist about it, in fact it's so well acknowledged it's a trope. Not that the Japanese are unique in this, their entertainment programs just tend to use it more gratuitously. Basically whenever they need something to sound good they just grab a foreign name or word and re-use it most likely in a context that has nothing to do with its actual meaning. Lots of examples in anime where it becomes confusing when translated to English because the loan words (frequently English) have been used in a way nonsensical to what they mean in their language of origin. You see the reverse in many Western entertainment programs where they use Eastern phrases, words, etc in a similar manner because their foreignness makes them more interesting.