D&D 4E Where was 4e headed before it was canned?

[Imaro]

They do have insight, about the math elements of the system, and observations about how different elements work out in actual play. Hence why they settled on the free-form rules they did, with a robust and elegant action resolution model.

Yeah +1 = +5% isn't that hard to figure out if you want to base your DC's around specific math...

 

[Garthanos]

This isn't entirely true it gives a broad overview of what the skills cover... what it doesnt do is give specific DC's or go into minute detail.

DCs look to be everything though nothing gives minute detail except maybe from rumor the extended 3.x rules set.

 

[Garthanos]

Session zero

You have no problem if they are wrapped up in spells telling me in session zero that you changed it or arent allowing the spell

But because it isnt magic the same issue with skills having ability effects is a now a problem you cannot deal with in session zero. So you do not want them to be defined at all and them not being defined is a "feature"

 

[Parmandur]

DCs look to be everything though nothing gives minute detail except maybe from rumor the extended 3.x rules set.

Yes, exact details aren't given because they are pure judgement calls: the game relies on the DM to adjudicate. Features, not bugs.

 

[Garthanos]

Yes, exact details aren't given because they are pure judgement calls: the game relies on the DM to adjudicate. Features, not bugs.

Force DMs do that with spells.... inform players in session 0 what magic you will be using improvisationally decided by the DM. Great! the game designers can now take out huge amount of content and its a feature which by the way would make D&D more genre independent too (since the spells lock that down as much if not more than anything)

 

[Garthanos]

Yeah +1 = +5% isn't that hard to figure out if you want to base your DC's around specific math...

Add in advantage or disadvantage or re-rolls or an extra d4 .

RuneQuests (Basic Roleplaying) percentage system is sometimes considered awesome because we seem to understand percentiles intuitively a little better.

 

[Garthanos]

Session zero becomes very huge when the game provides no starting point off of which i can make exceptions NOTE it does provide starting points on many things presented to the players with adjustments possible from the DM. Arguably the entire list of spells are examples of a starting point that a DM might want to change. I have adjusted spells like raising the Dead in every version of D&D I have dmd (usually doubling its level and introducing questlines) and I have no problem doing that.

 

[Imaro]

In the end though, this is true, and it's exactly what some/many people want. Some DMs want to be made to feel like their decisions cannot be wrong, and the rulebooks back that up. Some, especially those who game exclusively with friends, really like the idea of "gaming the DM" because everyone is buds around the table. Some just don't give a crap about the system at all and just want to hang out with people they like doing something they all find kinda fun; with fewer demands on rules knowledge and less demanding character creation and so forth, 5e fits that. So yeah, a system that basically just says "eh, figure it out" and the DM is like "Uh, I dunno....DC 15" works in those regards. After all, as people are pointing out, lots of people are playing the game.

Lol... way to both miss the point of why we enjoy only a broad overview of skills and be both condescending and insulting at the same time. Here let me reply by using your post but addressing your viewpoint...

In the end though, this is true, and it's exactly what some/many people want. Some DMs can't make a decision without the book to back them up and provide affirmation of their choice, they feel like if the decision is in a book it cannot be wrong or bad, and the rulebooks back that up. Some, especially those who game exclusively with strangers, really like the idea of "the book as DM" because it's hard to facilitate communication with everyone siting around the table. Some just worship the system as the end all and be all and just want to have fun with what basically amounts to a bunch of if/then statements in the form of a tabletop rpg.... fun; with fewer demands on actual decision making and fiddly, esoteric character creation rules, game X fits that. So yeah, a system that tries to cover minutae to the point of becoming burdensome and bordering on work instead of fun along with a DM who is like "Uh, da book will tell me what to pick"" works in those regards...

 

[Imaro]

Add in advantage or disadvantage or re-rolls or an extra d4 .

RuneQuests (Basic Roleplaying) percentage system is sometimes considered awesome because we seem to understand percentiles intuitively a little better.

Why are you considering those when setting the base difficulty of a task? How difficult is this task for your average joe in neutral circumstances... Why are you factoring bonuses and penalties into base difficulty?

 

[Imaro]

You have no problem if they are wrapped up in spells telling me in session zero that you changed it or arent allowing the spell

But because it isnt magic the same issue with skills having ability effects is a now a problem you cannot deal with in session zero. So you do not want them to be defined at all and them not being defined is a "feature"

Oh I never said you couldn't go through every instance of use for every skill in session zero if they all had preset DC examples... I said I don't want to. If that's your thing more power to you... didn't Pathfinder 2e just drop? It probably gives you more of what you are looking for in your fantasy rpg then 5e.