D&D 5E (2014) Wherein we discuss spells and other magical things.

[Oofta]

No, it doesn't. But that's a description that is consistent with the known and uncontroversial behavior of the ORS.


Your understanding of Newtonian physics seems...flawed. The concept that the ground is applying equal and opposite force to the falling object is Newton's 3rd!



(Emphasis mine.)

The force is applied to the sphere, stopping the sphere. The occupant of the sphere then hits the interior of the sphere - not the ground. Whether the momentum of that impact is transferred to the ground like it should be is open to debate.

In any case, I'm tired of debating semantics. I'm done.

 

[Satyrn]

Well, it explicitly says it is weightless.

But weightless doesn't automatically mean massless.

How are you getting from "sphere is weightless" to "sphere is massless?"

 

[Oofta]

But weightless doesn't automatically mean massless.

How are you getting from "sphere is weightless" to "sphere is massless?"

The scientific definition of weight is: weight = mass X gravitational force. The only way to be weightless is to either have no mass, or to have no gravitational force (or in the case of magic ignore the gravitational force). I'm not sure it matters either way.

Of course from a layman's point of view, most people may also say that a hot air balloon is weightless so it depends on how picky you're being. A lot people would say that a cubic foot of air has no weight when it does - 0.0807 lbs according to google.

 

[Satyrn]

The scientific definition of weight is: weight = mass X gravitational force. The only way to be weightless is to either have no mass, or to have no gravitational force (or in the case of magic ignore the gravitational force). I'm not sure it matters either way.

Of course from a layman's point of view, most people may also say that a hot air balloon is weightless so it depends on how picky you're being. A lot people would say that a cubic foot of air has no weight when it does - 0.0807 lbs according to google.

Thank you. It's the second time you've explained it, and I understand what you're saying.

It's Danny I was specifically asking, because he said the sphere breaks the rules of physics while at the same time backing up his view by using physics. I was rather asking him to "show his work," exactly how he gets from weightless to massless - whether through some calculation or thought experiment even.

Although what I really want to know is how he's deciding which bits of physics apply and which bits are ignored because magic.

What I really ought be saying, though, is "If the sphere breaks the rules of physics at all , I'm completely disinterested in finding a ruling based on physics."

 

[cbwjm]

Thank you. It's the second time you've explained it, and I understand what you're saying.

It's Danny I was specifically asking, because he said the sphere breaks the rules of physics while at the same time backing up his view by using physics. I was rather asking him to "show his work," exactly how he gets from weightless to massless - whether through some calculation or thought experiment even.

Although what I really want to know is how he's deciding which bits of physics apply and which bits are ignored because magic.

What I really ought be saying, though, is "If the sphere breaks the rules of physics at all , I'm completely disinterested in finding a ruling based on physics."

I'd say it's best to just ignore physics. The occupant is protected while inside the sphere. If it drops off a cliff, and doesn't just gently float down, then the sphere absorbs the impact and the occupant takes no damage. Easy.

 

[Satyrn]

I'd say it's best to just ignore physics. The occupant is protected while inside the sphere. If it drops off a cliff, and doesn't just gently float down, then the sphere absorbs the impact and the occupant takes no damage. Easy.

Aye. What I find kind of funny is that I was the first to reply to this thread, saying

It looks to me like the trapped fool ought to suffer falling damage.

But the discussion has actually convinced me to rule the opposite, to go with what you said.

No, that's not the funny part. The funny part is that I completely disagree with the argument of the most prolific voice for the "occupant is safe" side.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But weightless doesn't automatically mean massless.

How are you getting from "sphere is weightless" to "sphere is massless?"

I freely admit that my understanding of mass & weight goes no further than the atomic scale Newtonian stuff from HS, some formal study of chaos theory and some novel applications of it, plus a continuing interest with things I absolutely cannot do the math on- spooky action at a distance, etc.

At that scale, weightless and massless are essentially identical, near as I can tell.

It's Danny I was specifically asking, because he said the sphere breaks the rules of physics while at the same time backing up his view by using physics. I was rather asking him to "show his work," exactly how he gets from weightless to massless - whether through some calculation or thought experiment even.

Although what I really want to know is how he's deciding which bits of physics apply and which bits are ignored because magic.

Show my work?

As I recently said, all spells and magical effects obey AND break rules of physics, citing how most- but not all- magical fire burns. In the case of ORS, how did I decide which RW rules applied and which didn't?

When I saw the initial answers to the question, I saw an inconsistency: those who want falling damage to occur were letting force from outside the sphere damage the occupant. The only difference I could perceive between the neutralized weapon strikes and the falling damage was the amount of the damage- all do damage via kinetic energy, and all are "effects originating from outside"

Given the text of the spell, that made no sense to me.

So I asked myself how the ORS was protecting its occupants from damage by kinetic force. The only two possibilities made sense to me:

1) the ORS simply reduces that damaging force to zero. The energy is "magicked" out of existence, violating laws of physics.

2) the ORS converts kinetic energy into magical energy, which is harmlessly released back into whatever the campaign world's source of magic is (originally stated by me in Post #58). While there are games that have "environmental mana" that casters tap into, most D&D settings aren't really among of them. At least, not explicitly so.

Given that a lot of physics breaking stuff in D&D's magic system is not explained in depth, I felt Option 1 was more likely.

And here we are, all those pages later.

 

[Lanefan]

But...but...but...some of us like things going splat!

I think it would take a more powerful version of the same spell to also prevent all damage (except, one assumes, self-inflicted) to the occupant due to violent movement of the sphere.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But...but...but...some of us like things going splat!

I think it would take a more powerful version of the same spell to also prevent all damage (except, one assumes, self-inflicted) to the occupant due to violent movement of the sphere.

I like splatting things as well, but I just don't see it happening here.

Still, just because one is within a ORS, I can see other problems arising. A pixie assassin emerging from one's backpack would be an issue. So could an illusion causing your party members to believe they see one- "It's in the sphere, right behind you!" all shouting & pointing...

A large, intelligent creature holding an ORS over a chasm for 15...20...25 seconds might be able to negotiate a surrender, because whichever line of reasoning your DM follows, the longer he waits, the less likely the ORS will exist at the drop's terminus.

An ORS may be more buoyant than its occupant alone, but drape a weighted net over it and you can surely make it sink.

Is it powerful? Sure. But it has a cost: the inability to affect the world in any meaningful way while so well perfected. Invulnerable...but impotent.

Years ago, I played a Dex & Wis based Githzerai monk with a polearm and the requisite feats. Great fun. But the thing was, even though foes struggled to tag him in melee, his allies were not so lucky. There were times when there was a serious risk of him being the last man standing. Had that happened, he wouldn't have survived long after.

The ORS's occupant could find himself likewise standing alone amid downed allies, with the fight not yet over.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Aye, although I think the equation [MENTION=6801845]Oofta[/MENTION] posted in reply to my question says that when gravity > 0 then a weight of 0 requires the mass also be 0.

In general, yes. To break that such as by protecting the object against gravity would require something outside our current understanding.
Something like magic.

I think the equation messes up though if we try to figure out what the is gravity when start by knowing that weight and mass are both 0. Which would be where the "it's magic" explanation comes in. Which leaves me wondering what physics has to do with anything in D&D

I generally assume that physics works in D&D mostly the same as real life, - until magic gets involved.
I think that trying to combine RL physics with a nit-pick reading of the precise rules of a spell isn't generally going to be useful however. Its magic. Go with the intent of the spell or whichever interpretation is most interesting.

I freely admit that my understanding of mass & weight goes no further than the atomic scale Newtonian stuff from HS, some formal study of chaos theory and some novel applications of it, plus a continuing interest with things I absolutely cannot do the math on- spooky action at a distance, etc.

At that scale, weightless and massless are essentially identical, near as I can tell.

When you're talking about actual matter however, there is a lot of difference however.
Simple practical example: you have to exert force against an object with mass to start it moving even if its weightless. You would feel resistance, like pushing something on frictionless wheels. When you stopped pushing, the object would continue moving until another force, even just air resistance changed its velocity.

Pushing against a massless object, the only resistance you would feel is the air resistance, which would stop it moving as soon as you stopped pushing it.

When someone casts levitate for example, they can be effectively weightless, but I think that they still retain their mass.

But...but...but...some of us like things going splat!

I think it would take a more powerful version of the same spell to also prevent all damage (except, one assumes, self-inflicted) to the occupant due to violent movement of the sphere.

Do you distinguish between violent movement of the sphere caused by impact with the ground, and violent movement of the sphere caused by impact with a dragon's tail for example?