Where's the Thievery Gone?

[MaxKaladin]

A couple of weeks ago, someone referred to my rogue as a "thief" and that led to a discussion of all the things my rogue does NOT do, like steal from the party, steal when we're in town, etc.

He's basically a scout and 'commando'. The only time he's actually out and out stolen anything was when he slipped into an enemy stronghold and stole some plans ahead of the rest of the party's assault (so the leader couldn't destroy them or escape with them before everyone got to the spot they were stored).

 

[Imp]

See, I like it when the whole party's kinda thievish and it's the cleric that's the odd man out. Different kind of hooks you get, but hooks aplenty!

 

[KrazyHades]

I expect that there's been a decline in larcenous characters in general. In the old days, you actually got XP for recovering gold on the adventure... in fact, that's where the majority of your XP came from, by the rules (you didn't get much for killing monsters). That means that the game was "oriented" toward getting the loot, not hunting down every last critter in the dungeon. You especially wouldn't want to waste your time fighting something that didn't have any treasure!

I think that was part of the "Swords and Sorcery" feel of the older editions. You're in this for the loot - if you can cart off the famous Black Pearl without even having to fight a monster, so much the better. You get XP and spending cash. That mentality places more emphasis on the light-fingered skills of the Thief.

Nowadays, I think the focus is more like "Fantasy Delta Force". You're supposed to do a surgical strike on the encounter location, thunderstoning the room, eliminating all the tangos and commandeering any heavy weapons. So you have your grunts (fighting classes), your pigman (the mage), your combat medic (the cleric) and your scout/sniper (rogue). Getting gold is usually your last concern - you're there to neutralize the OPFOR and accomplish your mission objectives.

So the current view of the game bascially downplays roguery.

I hear you. But since I like rogues, and am careful to keep the "solo adventure" of the theft confined to ~1 minute, if even that, I give XP for sucessful theft, though sometimes very little XP, just as if it was disarming a trap.

 

[Wraith Form]

I hear you. But since I like rogues, and am careful to keep the "solo adventure" of the theft confined to ~1 minute, if even that, I give XP for sucessful theft, though sometimes very little XP, just as if it was disarming a trap.

QfT.

My group (see my post above for details) actually have larcenous jobs they need to do. Hell, rolling into town to do a little B&E is the point of their adventure, not the thing that slows the adventure down!

My players are also wise regarding the meta-game. They keep the extraneous stuff (solo missions) to a minimum. We were in a group last year with a rogue-player that kept screwing off, doing solo missions, annoying assasins guilds, etc.--and that rogue kept getting captured, tortured, killed, etc. They learned their lesson from watching him, and now keep their collective noses clean unless the guild they're working for asks them to do a "job".

Regarding gold, it's funny - I provide an adequate amount of gold to the players, so they don't feel a strong need to screw off too much.

Good times!

 

[Wik]

One thing I've noticed is that thievery has changed in 3e. In 2e and eaerlier editions, Pickpocket was a thief skill - and one that most of the players I knew made a point of maxing out. It was useful, and it was a skill every rogue player saw a use for.

In 3e, I don't see nearly as many rogue characters maxing out (or even putting ranks in) Sleight of Hand. They just have more important skills to invest in - spot, listen, search, disable device, open lock, use magic device, just to name a few.

I think Rogue larceny has changed because of this. Personally, though,I like the new way better.

 

[Li Shenron]

A Rogue character that wants to continually steal when in town can be as annoying as a Paladin that continually wants to kill anything that detects as evil, a Cleric that continually wants to convert anyone to his religion, a Fighter that continually wants to start a fight to put his abilities into highlight, a Ranger that continually wants to eliminate any specimen of his favored enemy races, a Druid that continually wants to erase any sign of civilzation to restore nature...

These are extremist types of characters, which can be played decently if they fit with the rest of the party which means that all players agree.

When there is a problem like this is because the players don't agree, one doesn't want to change his mind about playing the character, and the others don't want to change their mind about not having such a character with them. Probably everybody's fault.

There are certain behaviours which are very hard to accept, and IMXP these include:
- betraying the party
- physically attacking another party member
- stealing from another party member

In our group we know that we can't play successfully these kinds of thing, so we just promise not to do them. Just because we can't cope with them it doesn't mean that another group couldn't be fine instead.

Commenting the specific case of a thief who steals from NPCs.

1) The more it is done over and over, the more it changes from fun to boring. Obvious. But keep in mind that ANYTHING is subject to this. So if your Rogue player is doing it too often, just talk with him and tell that the others are getting bored, don't ask him not to do it anymore, but rather ask him to try doing it when it's really a cool moment to do so.

2) The DM should sometimes take the opportunity of using the Rogue action as a trigger for some interesting event. Every other time, when the DM thinks it's not a good opportunity, just don't give the theft any spotlight at all.
For instance, if the Rogue wants to steal some coins from each and every bartender... don't even bother with requiring a Sleight of Hand check. Just let him succeed, spend a sentence at most on the event ("You manage to steal 3cp from his pocket") and MOVE ON.

If you instead everytime go through the pick pocket checks, the bartender calling the guards, the arrest, the trial, the jail, the jailbreak, the runaway... Just DON'T do it, let him succeed for no real prize!

 

[Wraith Form]

So if your Rogue player is doing it too often, just talk with him and tell that the others are getting bored, don't ask him not to do it anymore, but rather ask him to try doing it when it's really a cool moment to do so.

First, I snipped this post to save space but Li Shenron has the right of it. Spot on, excellently written.

Second, regarding the quote above - IM/email is ideal for a little pre-/post-game rogue soloing between the DM & the player.