D&D 3.x Which 3.5 spells aren't improvements
- Thread starter Psion
- Start date
Falling Icicle
Adventurer
I'm probably going to get alot of miscellaneous vegetables thrown my way, but I actually like alot of the controversial spell revisions.
Haste - this spell was way too powerful in 3.0. Having frequently played spellcasters I can say that this spell made more of a difference in my battle performance than any of my high level spells did. Yeah, it is less useful to spellcasters now, but I don't think most people realise that the 3.5 version is actually almost identical to the 2nd edition version of the spell. One can always design the 3.0 Haste spell as "Improved Haste" at 6th level, if they miss the old chessy, munchkin, who needs quicken, extravaganza of 3.0.
Invisibility spells I also like the change to these spells. It was way too easy for a Wizard to go around for hours doing the Rogue's job better than the Rogue could. These spells have seen alot of use by my current Wizard character and I actually like the suspense of knowing that they can run out.
Buff spells I have mixed feelings on the Bull's Strength and similar buff spells. For one thing, I always pictured spells that make creatures stronger, faster, etc not lasting for hours at a time. These spells never saw much use anyway in my games since most people would get items to enhance their attributes. I would think that adding a +2 hit and damage (from str) for 1 minute/level is probably about what a second level spell should be. Even at low levels it should easily last throughout an entire battle, and likewise lasts long enough that you don't have to worry about it running out quickly if you cast it in preparation of a battle. The ability to empower them was never much of a big deal to me. 1d4 + 3d2 +1 to an attribute as an 8th level spell is anything but overpowered. Oh well, just design higher level versions that give a higher bonus or last longer if you don't think the 2nd level spells are sufficient. They are only 2nd level, after all.
Scrying Another one I like. I thought that the ability to pretty much automatically scry on someone and there be little to nothing they can do about it was extremely cheap in 3.0. And thank god we no longer have the Scry skill!
Polymorph I like the changes here. Maybe the duration is a bit short, but I like how they divided the helpful and harmful versions of the spell in 3.5.
Scorching Ray Finally, a 2nd level alternative to Melf's Acid Arrow. My DM thinks this spell is overpowered. I totally disagree. Melf's Acid Arrow does less damage overall, but it only requires one attack roll to hit and is an excellent way for screwing up spellcasters throughout a battle. The 3rd level spells can do 10d6 to many creatures, so I dont think the ability to shoot three 4d6 rays is overpowered for 2nd level at all.
Hold Spells I like the change here. In 3.0 succesfully casting a Hold spell on someone meant the battle was over. Might as well have been an instant kill spell.
Sorcerer spell swapping Thank you, WOTC!
Now for the ones I don't like:
Spell Save DCs They went way too far, IMHO, in their efforts to "balance" save DCs. Even in 3.0 it was almost impossible for a spellcaster to keep up in Epic levels. Now I am simply uninterested in ever playing an Epic game because I know my spellcaster will be almost worthless.
Spider Climb This is one I don't like. I simply don't know what was on the developer's minds when they did this. Perhaps they neglected to notice the Levitate spell at 2nd level? A least now you can use the spell while wearing shoes though...
Daze Monster I don't get this. How is this worth more than a 0th level spell? I'll use Color Spray, thanks.
Polar Ray I am totally confused by this one. 20d6 dmg as a ray to one creature. And this is worth an 8th level spell?! Look at delayed blast fireball, a 7th level spell. No touch attack, up to 20d6 dmg, and it can hit many creatures at once. I can do 12d6 with the 2nd level Scorching Ray spell for crying out loud! This should be, at the most, a 5th level spell.
Sleep There is an entire thread on this topic. No need to go over it all again. I must say, though, it was still pretty worthless in 3.0. All they did by nerfing it was kick an already dead horse.
Ray of Enfeeblement People complain way too much about how Magic Missile is the overpowewred 1st level spell. They must have passed by Ray of Enfeeblement. This spell definately needs to have a savign throw.
Phantasmal killer I can't believe they didn't change this spell. An instant kill spell is way too powerful at 4th level, even if it does allow two saving throws. For that matter I hope desperately that they change the Druid spells Miasma and Languor when Complete Divine comes out. If they don't, I can guarantee those spells will be banned in any game I DM!
Haste - this spell was way too powerful in 3.0. Having frequently played spellcasters I can say that this spell made more of a difference in my battle performance than any of my high level spells did. Yeah, it is less useful to spellcasters now, but I don't think most people realise that the 3.5 version is actually almost identical to the 2nd edition version of the spell. One can always design the 3.0 Haste spell as "Improved Haste" at 6th level, if they miss the old chessy, munchkin, who needs quicken, extravaganza of 3.0.
Invisibility spells I also like the change to these spells. It was way too easy for a Wizard to go around for hours doing the Rogue's job better than the Rogue could. These spells have seen alot of use by my current Wizard character and I actually like the suspense of knowing that they can run out.
Buff spells I have mixed feelings on the Bull's Strength and similar buff spells. For one thing, I always pictured spells that make creatures stronger, faster, etc not lasting for hours at a time. These spells never saw much use anyway in my games since most people would get items to enhance their attributes. I would think that adding a +2 hit and damage (from str) for 1 minute/level is probably about what a second level spell should be. Even at low levels it should easily last throughout an entire battle, and likewise lasts long enough that you don't have to worry about it running out quickly if you cast it in preparation of a battle. The ability to empower them was never much of a big deal to me. 1d4 + 3d2 +1 to an attribute as an 8th level spell is anything but overpowered. Oh well, just design higher level versions that give a higher bonus or last longer if you don't think the 2nd level spells are sufficient. They are only 2nd level, after all.
Scrying Another one I like. I thought that the ability to pretty much automatically scry on someone and there be little to nothing they can do about it was extremely cheap in 3.0. And thank god we no longer have the Scry skill!
Polymorph I like the changes here. Maybe the duration is a bit short, but I like how they divided the helpful and harmful versions of the spell in 3.5.
Scorching Ray Finally, a 2nd level alternative to Melf's Acid Arrow. My DM thinks this spell is overpowered. I totally disagree. Melf's Acid Arrow does less damage overall, but it only requires one attack roll to hit and is an excellent way for screwing up spellcasters throughout a battle. The 3rd level spells can do 10d6 to many creatures, so I dont think the ability to shoot three 4d6 rays is overpowered for 2nd level at all.
Hold Spells I like the change here. In 3.0 succesfully casting a Hold spell on someone meant the battle was over. Might as well have been an instant kill spell.
Sorcerer spell swapping Thank you, WOTC!
Now for the ones I don't like:
Spell Save DCs They went way too far, IMHO, in their efforts to "balance" save DCs. Even in 3.0 it was almost impossible for a spellcaster to keep up in Epic levels. Now I am simply uninterested in ever playing an Epic game because I know my spellcaster will be almost worthless.
Spider Climb This is one I don't like. I simply don't know what was on the developer's minds when they did this. Perhaps they neglected to notice the Levitate spell at 2nd level? A least now you can use the spell while wearing shoes though...
Daze Monster I don't get this. How is this worth more than a 0th level spell? I'll use Color Spray, thanks.
Polar Ray I am totally confused by this one. 20d6 dmg as a ray to one creature. And this is worth an 8th level spell?! Look at delayed blast fireball, a 7th level spell. No touch attack, up to 20d6 dmg, and it can hit many creatures at once. I can do 12d6 with the 2nd level Scorching Ray spell for crying out loud! This should be, at the most, a 5th level spell.
Sleep There is an entire thread on this topic. No need to go over it all again. I must say, though, it was still pretty worthless in 3.0. All they did by nerfing it was kick an already dead horse.
Ray of Enfeeblement People complain way too much about how Magic Missile is the overpowewred 1st level spell. They must have passed by Ray of Enfeeblement. This spell definately needs to have a savign throw.
Phantasmal killer I can't believe they didn't change this spell. An instant kill spell is way too powerful at 4th level, even if it does allow two saving throws. For that matter I hope desperately that they change the Druid spells Miasma and Languor when Complete Divine comes out. If they don't, I can guarantee those spells will be banned in any game I DM!
jgsugden
Legend
Attribute Buffs: The buff duration nerfs were a great idea. The presence of those spells was dominating the spellcasting capabilities of most of the classes in 3.0. Everyone was memorizing a few dozen of those buffs to help out the PCs ... now, there is a clear distinction between having an item of that type and having a spell.
Polymorph: Theoretically, I like everything they did with it. In practice, the rules are too complex and they failed to address the biggest problem: HD is not a good gauge of power. In the end, the changes made a few slight improvements, but far more was needed.
Sleep: It was too strong, but their 'nerf' was not an appropriate one. They should have kept the casting time as 1 standard action and made the duration instantaneous, so that the enemy would wake up normally and easily in the middle of a battle. You could use it to put a guard to sleep and sneak by him, but in the middle of a big battle, all it would do is knock a few troops prone for a round. That would be a balanced spell. Either that, or just give everyone a saving throw bonus against it ...
Darkness: I like the addition of the new version of darkness, but the old darkness spells should have remained, but been raised to a higher level.
Polar ray wasn't a change, but it is a lousy spell as it is written. It needs a nice special ability added to it. Either that, or it needs to be turned into a line spell instead of a ray.
Polymorph: Theoretically, I like everything they did with it. In practice, the rules are too complex and they failed to address the biggest problem: HD is not a good gauge of power. In the end, the changes made a few slight improvements, but far more was needed.
Sleep: It was too strong, but their 'nerf' was not an appropriate one. They should have kept the casting time as 1 standard action and made the duration instantaneous, so that the enemy would wake up normally and easily in the middle of a battle. You could use it to put a guard to sleep and sneak by him, but in the middle of a big battle, all it would do is knock a few troops prone for a round. That would be a balanced spell. Either that, or just give everyone a saving throw bonus against it ...
Darkness: I like the addition of the new version of darkness, but the old darkness spells should have remained, but been raised to a higher level.
Polar ray wasn't a change, but it is a lousy spell as it is written. It needs a nice special ability added to it. Either that, or it needs to be turned into a line spell instead of a ray.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Cyberzombie said:
Check again, Cloudkill is an absolute killer spell now
It makes an especially good combination spell if used along with evards black tentacles, web or in conjunction with a druid (entangle, wall of thorns). Best of all would probably be if you could grab someone in an otilukes resilient sphere after landing the cloudkill on top of them. Theres only so much 1d4 Con damage that any adventurer can take (heh heh)
Psion - I've put detailed answers in your "house rules" version of this thread because I saw it there first. I've mentioned some spells which haven't been mentioned here.
Cheers
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
BZZZT!Plane Sailing said:
Can't do that. Cloudkill moves away from the caster at a speed between 10ft/round and 60ft/round. So people will only spend a round or two within the cloud.
Since the point of origin for the spell isn't a physical object, it's not blocked by walls of force or resilient spheres. Since line of effect is broken if the spell's point of origin passed through one of these two spells, the spell will cease, just as if it moved out of range of the caster.
It's an interesting spell, but it can't be used for a trap'n'toast. Most of the damaging cloud spells are the same.
MeepoTheMighty
First Post
I think you're missing something here. Polymorph combines the beneficial effects of the old Polymorph Self and Polymorph Other - it can be used on any willing target. Baleful Polymorph now has all of the offensive uses of Polymorph Other.jessemock said:
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