Merlion said:
I disagree with these assertions, to a point, especially the last one. And I think you are underestimating the Clerics resources to specialize, at least some what, in multiple things at a time.
Not at all. I'm just recognizing that clerics need to specialize in order to excel in any of the roles that they pick up. Let's compare the following clerics:
1. Clr 8/Radiant Servant of Pelor 5. Strength, Sun, and Glory domains. Power Attack, Extra Turning, Leadership, Craft Wondrous Item, Quicken Spell, and Divine Spellpower for feats. Str 14, Dex 9 (-1 penalty due to a curse), Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16 (+3 levels), Cha 12
Prominent items: lesser strand of prayer beads, hat of charisma +4, cape of elemental protection, bracers of the quick strike, belt of one mighty blow, +1 greatsword, +2 periapt of wisdom, ioun stone of constitution +2, vest of resistance +3, gloves of dexterity +2, boots of striding and springing, +1 light fortification fullplate.
This is a fairly balanced character. He can mix it up in melee if he needs to and can drop some spells if he needs to. He has a lot of success with fire seeds and flame strike, some success with blade barrier, and greater command, and to date has had no success with slay living. If he focuses his spell list towards fighting, he can fill a fighter's role after two rounds of buffing, but if he has to wade in before then will only be somewhat effective. He is what you're talking about: a character who semi-specializes in several things--turning, buffing, some offensive spellcasting, and is usually second rank melee. (In other words, he's what a cleric has always been in D&D).
2. val'Holryn (val'Sheem powers) Cleric 8 of Beltine. Spirit and afterlife domains. Str 8, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 17 (+1 level--the other level bump went into a bloodline ability), Cha 13
Feats: Scribe Scroll, Legionaire, Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Prominent items: +1 lorica segmentata, +2 periapt of wisdom, +1 cloak of resistance, lesser strand of prayer beads, horn of fog, large collection of scrolls.
This character is designed as an offensive spellcaster and healer/turner. For her first three levels (as a cohort, she started at level 4), she only wore leather armor. Since she chanced upon some magic armor in a favorable trade, she has worn it but wouldn't hesitate to go back if she could get a good deal selling her current armor because her primary defense is not being on the front lines. She has had an amazing amount of success with Phantasmal Killer (4th level domain spell) and bestow curse (fortunately for her, spectral hand is also a domain spell) and moderate success with hold person, random action (under 3.0), blindness/deafness, etc. She could buff herself up for melee and be almost as good a fighter as the first cleric (at 8th level) without buffs, but she doesn't. For her part, the tradeoff of melee effectiveness for spell effectivess has been a good one.
3. Clr 4/Church Inquisitor 1: Purification, Glory, and Inquisition domains. Str 10, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 16 (+1 level), Cha 14
Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Augment Healing
Prominent items: banded mail, +2 periapt of wisdom, club.
This character is also designed as a spellcasting focused cleric but one who also has a number of useful skills. Being able to do both (and eventually to make good use of the Divine Spellpower feat he'll take at 6th level) required him to give up most of his combat effectiveness.
4. Bbn 1/Clr 12 Domains: Strength, Luck. 1/2 orc Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 14 (+3 level), Cha 6
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Craft Wondrous Item, Quicken Spell, Extra Rage
prominent Items: +1 ghost touch greatclub. +1 adamantine falchion, +1 feathered mithral fullplate, +4 periapt of wisdom.
This character is designed as an all out melee cleric. He charges things and smashes them with his weapons. Now, he could hold back a bit and drop a flame strike before charging in (but he doesn't--that's a round he didn't use to cast righteous might) and he can cast a heal spell when he needs to. His other abilities are pretty clearly secondary to his role as a fighter.
Also bear in mind the other spellcasting classes dont have the option. Period. Wizards and Sorcerers get spells (and wizards get a few magic related bonus feats) and thats it.
I think you're forgetting a few things here. First, you're forgetting the druid who definitely has the option to specialize in one of his areas of expertise. Second, I think you underestimate the viability of a fighter/mage type. I'd say my eldritch knight pulls his weight just as much as any of the clerics I listed above. Even without the fighter levels, I've seen some surprisingly effective combat mages. And remember that 3 out of 4 things that a cleric can specialize in are not melee combat.
No, but you can by the party investing in a Wand or two.
No you can't. A wand of cure light wounds or lesser vigor is strictly after combat healing. In any of the situations I described above (in other words, any situation that a level 7+ character is likely to find himself in), 1d8+1 is not going to cut it. You need a heal spell.
Your right about Resilient Spheres, to a point. But the Reflex save area damage spells...I have a hard time seeing them as enough of a threat to constitute a true vulnerability. Especially when you consider how many hit points a Cleric is likely to have.
Again, this is probably because you don't play clerics. First, clerics don't have as many hit points vis a vis other classes as you seem to think. Their problem is that their prime attribute enhancing item sits in the same slot as a con enhancing item would: the necklace/amulet/periapt slot. So clerics are likely to have lower con boost items than sorcerer/wizards. Assuming that clerics find alternate slot items like belts of dwarvenkind or ioun stones of constitution, they're still likely to be two to four points behind the con of an arcane caster. Consequently, they will generally have the same hit points (four points behind) or their character level in extra hit points (two points behind). That's not as dramatic a difference as you imply.
Second, reflex is the worst save for clerics in more than one way. Not only is it a weak save, dexterity is generally a cleric's dump stat. (After all, they wear heavy armor and they have to skimp somewhere). And clerics with their limited feats don't have as many options to boost their saves as wizards do. A sorcerer or wizard will generally try to get at least a decent dexterity to improve their AC and their ranged touch attack rolls and initiative, etc. Consequently, a cleric will generally have a weaker reflex save than any other class.
Third, you underestimate the damage from area effect spells. Most such spells do 1d6 per level. Since clerics get 1d8+con/level, a single spell isn't likely to drop them. However, since 1+con bonus is generally 3-4 points, a second area effect damage spell or an empowered damage spell plus a second damage spell IS likely to drop a cleric. I've had it happen to my clerics more than once.
Your right, for the most part about resist/protection as comes to spells. However, if the Cleric realizes he's going to be dealing with a Wizard, he can easily pick likely spells for a Spell Immunity. Also, your forgetting about Spell Resistance.
Spell Resistance is quite useful for dealing with area effect damage (or at least it seems like it should be--I've never actually used it with my cleric, preferring to reliably benefit from my companion's haste spells and thinking an extra flame strike, slay living, or quickened divine favor a better deal). Spell Immunity is much less useful. When the wizard (who may or may not be there) has magic missile, scorching ray, ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, fireball, lightning bolt, and ice storm to choose from and you only get two spells to be immune to, guessing the right ones is not guaranteed. And, of course, if he's higher level than you, odds are he's going to be using chain lightning, or cone of cold anyway. Even when you can pick four spells to be immune to, there's no guarantee you'll get the right one.
As for the AC, unenhanced a Cleric will have an AC comparable to the Fighters. Cast Shield of Faith, and its better.
If the fighter isn't getting shield of faith as well, the cleric isn't doing his job..... I think the examples above demonstrate that a fighter will typically have an AC that is slightly to significantly better than a cleric's.
But even if this isnt the case, my point is the Cleric has enough AC and HP to be quite durable against physical attacks...if he doesnt pick off the attacker with a spell before the attacker gets close enough.
That rather depends upon the physical attack in question. I know that the primary weakness of the first cleric I listed is that he has an abysmal AC (19 before buffs--even with a good magic vestment and shield of faith, it's still only 28).
Also, look at the weaknesses of the other classes.
Wizards have poor Reflex AND Fort saves, and extremely low HP, and low AC without the chance to cast spells first.
So they have the same weakness you mentioned for the Cleric (and more so really because of their low HP), plus being vulnerable to Fort-based save or dies, poisons and the like.
In theory, it looks that way, but between higher constitutions and dexterities, and rat/weasel familiars, in my experience wizards tend to have decent fort and reflex saves. Rogues tend to be more vulnerable in this department.
Rogues have poor Fort and Will saves, making them extremely vulnerable to huge swaths of deadly spells and attacks, plus low HP and mediocre AC.
Fighters have poor Will and Reflex saves, making them extremely vulnerable to things like Resilient Spheres, Charms, Holds, Domination.
Will is a classic achilles heel for fighters though with all the prestige classes out these days, I find that fighters tend to be somewhat resistant to will saves. And because they have less pressure on their stat points, they tend to have slightly higher reflex saves than clerics.
And the list goes on. Other classes tend to have at least one huge gaping vulnerability, usualy more like two or more.
Clerics and Druids have one somewhat mild one that they are equiped to partially take the edge off of.
I'd agree that other classes tend to have more vulnerabilities in the save department than clerics or druids, but I wouldn't agree that the cleric/druid weakness is a mild one--it's just one that is easier to deal with than a fort weakness. And I do think that the cleric reflex save weakness is a gaping weakness. It's a bigger weakness than pretty much anything the other classes have with the possible exception of a rogue's will save.
I will admit, however, that at very low levels, a Wizard has better offensive spells than a cleric. Unfortunately, at mid-high levels, many skills are largely irrelevant in comparison to spells.
