Which is more vital to the party?

[Lord Pendragon]

Hrm. I figured that a nonspecific poll would be best, but it seems that some folks need more info to provide a reasoned answer. So some more info about my particular situation:

* I am a player in the game, not the DM.

* I've worried about overshadowing one of the other PCs myself. But I'm basically planning on playing this cohort when one of the players isn't playing, so this will be less of an issue. In fact, one point in favor of the wizard is that I have occasionally just played the cleric's PC while he's been away. Since the cleric has access to any spells, I can choose more effective spells and use them more tactically. This means that the cleric is much more effective on those times when the player isn't there, but that the player is never overshadowed.

The wizard's problem, unfortunately, is that he's done very poorly with his spell selection, in spite of the DM giving him several opportunities to get spells of his choice for free (mainly from other high-level wizards offering their spellbooks for scribing.) So even if I played the wizard's PC while the player was away, it'd be hard to make him effective with a bad spellbook to work with.

* We already have a large party with all the bases covered. A fighter and paladin (me) are our frontline tanks. We also have a druid. No bard, but though I wouldn't mind a bard, they simply don't have the spell selection that a wizard/cleric does. We're missing spells like Disintegrate, Wall of Force, Divination, Improved Invisibility, etc. Bards are nice, but their spell list is very weak, IME.

Also, I'd be worried about that d6 hit die.

* I've considered a Mystic Theurge. But with a party level of 12, that means a Mystic Theurge with access to, I believe, 4th-level spells. I'm not sure the added flexibility of both spell lists is worth the loss of higher-level spells.

 

[Voadam]

I would suggest a bard or cleric for support use (buffing, healing, divination). And just plan as if you didn't have a wizard. A better tactical wizard cohort would be stepping on the wizard's PCs toes for his niche. A support cleric works better, everyone likes more healing and party buffs and frees up the first cleric for directly offensive active participation spellcasting and melee.

 

[sniffles]

Try a favored soul if that's available to you. I participated in a campaign where our only NPC party member was a favored soul, and his healing abilities just rocked. I was running a cleric and it freed me up to be a ranged combat monster; I think I only used a healing spell once.

Druids are also a great class, as mentioned above.

 

[was]

I think it's harder to play a really good cleric. Maybe that's just because I haven't seen one yet.

 

[VirgilCaine]

The wizard's problem, unfortunately, is that he's done very poorly with his spell selection, in spite of the DM giving him several opportunities to get spells of his choice for free (mainly from other high-level wizards offering their spellbooks for scribing.) So even if I played the wizard's PC while the player was away, it'd be hard to make him effective with a bad spellbook to work with.

I would suggest asking the DM to ask the player why they haven't taken advantage of these FREE offers. Talk to the DM and see what the player has to say. Unless this is some kind of odd character based thing...the player might not get playing a wizard. I dunno.

But I vote cleric. With a cleric who can watch your back and heal and buff himself and others, you'll be safer as a party and as an individual.

 

[ElvishBard]

I am going to agree with the bard recommendations. Your choice is between a cleric and a wizard, and what is a bard if not the middle ground between the two? The bard can use skills to be a scout instead of dealing with people. The bard does have some great spells, you just have to be creative in their application.

 

[nyrfherdr]

Hey Pendragon!!! I haven't seen you in awhile. Can't wait to get you back at the game table!

A cohort. Hmmm. Spenser created that Bard when his Thief was trapped in the Slaadi prison. We could add him as a Cohort pretty easily. It works especially well that he's an elf.

For the rest of you, I'm the offending DM.
Pendragon has provided the base situation and the player dynamics are somewhat complicated. It would take way too long to explain.

There will be an opportunity to improve the Wizard's spellbook again soon, so that may not continue as our primary challenge, but then again it might.
Unfortunately, the opponents are getting tougher, meaner and well-versed in the groups current tactical choices.

I subscribe to the Rat-Bastard school of DMing once the characters achieve 12th level, although there have only been a couple of deaths so far.

Interesting thread. Keep the ideas coming
Game ON!
Nyrfherdr

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Hey Pendragon!!! I haven't seen you in awhile. Can't wait to get you back at the game table!

Hiya! Can't wait to get back to the table myself.

A cohort. Hmmm. Spenser created that Bard when his Thief was trapped in the Slaadi prison. We could add him as a Cohort pretty easily. It works especially well that he's an elf.

A paladin technically can't have a bard cohort. A paladin's cohort must be Lawful-Good, and of course a bard needs to be Chaotic. But more than that, I'm not sure I'm interested in a bard. They're too fragile for our game. Light armor, a d6 hit die, and two levels below the rest of the party? If I do pick up a cohort, I'm going to have a hard enough time keeping a cleric or wizard alive, let alone a bard. On top of that, I just don't see a bard as providing as much benefit as a cleric or wizard.

For the rest of you, I'm the offending DM.
Pendragon has provided the base situation and the player dynamics are somewhat complicated. It would take way too long to explain.

Yeah. Suffice it to say that they're great guys, just not really tactically-minded. So I as a player don't plan on trying to control their choices as players, or their actions as PCs (within reason), but I do think the party is lacking as a result of it. So I'm thinking a cohort may be a good way to have my cake and eat it too, basically.

There will be an opportunity to improve the Wizard's spellbook again soon, so that may not continue as our primary challenge, but then again it might.

One can hope.

Unfortunately, the opponents are getting tougher, meaner and well-versed in the groups current tactical choices.

Yes. I've talked with some of the other players out of game, and this is my biggest worry. The game has already been fairly unforgiving. But we're reaching the mid- to high-levels, where a serious mistake inevitably results in serious disaster. And only one-third of our spellpower (the druid) is tactically sound.

I subscribe to the Rat-Bastard school of DMing once the characters achieve 12th level, although there have only been a couple of deaths so far.

You mean you haven't been practicing the RBDM School up to this point? Now I'm really worried.

In response to some of the ideas we've had so far:

* I've seen a Favored Soul in action (there's one in the game I DM,) but I don't think this is a solution to our particular problem. The thing is, the cleric is just generally incompetent. Healing is one of the few positive contributions he makes. If that duty were removed from him, he'd most likely become wholly useless, instead of the "useless, but heals occasionally" we have now.

With a cleric cohort, I can choose a tactically potent spell load, then supplement his spotty healing as needed, while also buffing the rest of the party and providing a few utility spells such as Dispel Magic and the various divinations.

I am going to agree with the bard recommendations. Your choice is between a cleric and a wizard, and what is a bard if not the middle ground between the two? The bard can use skills to be a scout instead of dealing with people. The bard does have some great spells, you just have to be creative in their application.

I've played a bard, and am well-acquainted with their usefulness. If we had a well-played cleric and wizard, I'd seriously consider a bard cohort. But the bard can't provide what our party lacks. Divination, buffing, and potent wizardry.

I would suggest asking the DM to ask the player why they haven't taken advantage of these FREE offers. Talk to the DM and see what the player has to say. Unless this is some kind of odd character based thing...the player might not get playing a wizard. I dunno.

Like our DM nyrfherdr mentioned, the player relationships are complicated, but saying the player doesn't (quite) get playing a wizard is a fair claim. However, that doesn't really mean anything. I'm not trying to change the players. I don't want to, and I don't think I have a right to. I offer both of them advice when they ask, and sometimes make a friendly suggestion. But I am very careful not to try and play their characters for them. They don't deserve that.

That's actually the point of this thread. I'm considering picking up a cohort to shore up a tactical weakness without trying to "train" the players in question. It's a game, I don't plan to berate their playing, or make them feel like they are playing the "wrong" way.

Hrm. Given the input so far, I am leaning towards a cleric of some kind. It may be that I can help our wizard pick up a few vital spells in the future. Meanwhile, a cleric cohort--possibly with the magic domain--could help shore up the tactical weaknesses of the party. Also, if I were to design an archer-cleric, it would help to differentiate the cohort from the party's main cleric, who is built with an eye toward melee (and prevent the cohort from competing with the cleric.) We have a ranger in the party too, but the ranger is so lethal that there's no way an archer cohort could compete with him--no worries there.

 

[Stalker0]

You can never have too many clerics in a party

Behold, the CLERIC QUARTET!!!

Cleric 1: Oh no, this hall way could be full of deadly traps. Without a rogue, what will we do?!!!

Cleric 2: Don't worry cleric 1. I can call upon the divine insight of a 1000 rogues, finding those traps with ease!!

Later, at the Temple of Justice....

Cleric 3: Cleric 4, we have a problem. The Acolyte Avenger has escaped, and without a ranger to track him down we'll never find him.

Cleric 4: Not to worry Cleric 3, I will use the cleric commune computer to track him down. Noone can escape the gods!!

That evening, at the Masoleum...

Cleric 2: This is it everyone. The Acolyte Avenger has teamed up with Morgo the Wizard Wildling. Prepare yourselves!!

Cleric 1: Morgo's magics are stronger than all of ours, what should we do?

Cleric 3: I shall call upon the RIGHTEOUS MIGHT of the gods!! With my superior size and warrior knowledge, I shall hold Morgo fast in my arms filled with Sacred Strength!!

Cleric 4: I shall summon the celestial hoards of Therethungor!!

Cleric 2: And I shall summon a hoard of celestial swords that will work the will of the gods.

Cleric 1: And I'll heal anyone who gets hurt!!!

Cleric 2: Alright Cleric Quartet let's go!!

Cleric Quartet: FOR THE SALVATION OF SOULS!!!!!

 

[Zenodotus of Ephesus]

I don't think it matters as much what is in the party (kinda meta-gamey), as much what *your* character is and what would be attracted to *you* for in-game reasons. Are you famous in any way? Are you known in certain circles? If you're going to meta-game, do it right and crunch the numbers to see which of your hapless party-mates has created the least effective character, then build a "mini him" as a cohort.