Which of the following offensive actions would end an Invisibility spell?

[Li Shenron]

Which of the following offensive actions would end an Invisibility spell?

- cast a Detect spell whose area of effect includes an enemy
- cast a Dispel Magic whose area of effect includes an enemy
- cast a non-damaging fog spell whose area of effect includes an enemy
- cast a light/darkness spell whose area of effect includes an enemy
- cast a Forceful Hand or similar spell
- cast a Wall of Fire nearby an enemy
- cast a Wall of Iron and let it 50% fall on an enemy
- drop something casually from above an enemy
- teleport something above an enemy, and let it fall
- cast a touch spell through Spectral Hand
- cast a touch spell through your familiar
- direct a spell such as Flaming sphere (no attack, no target, no area... still offensive)

These and more are circumstances when I'm not 100% sure, and with some I'm even 50%

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Given:

The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

Here's how I would rule, and what the rules say. Note that I disagree that any spell that includes an enemy in its area of effect counts as an attack.

Would the following break invisibility?

1. Cast a Detect spell whose area of effect includes an enemy: M: No R: Yes

2. Cast a Dispel Magic whose area of effect includes an enemy: M: Yes R: Yes

3. Cast a non-damaging fog spell whose area of effect includes an enemy: M: No R: Yes

4. Cast a light/darkness spell whose area of effect includes an enemy: M: No R: Yes

5: Cast a Forceful Hand or similar spell: M: No R: No (it's not a targeted effect)

6. Cast a Wall of Fire nearby an enemy: M: No (if far enough to do no damage) R: No (if far enough to do no damage)

7. Cast a Wall of Iron and let it 50% fall on an enemy: M: Yes R: Don't Know.

8. Drop something casually from above an enemy: With intent to hit them? M: Y R: Y

9. Teleport something above an enemy, and let it fall: M: No R: No

10. Cast a touch spell through Spectral Hand: An attack spell? M: Yes R: Yes

11. Cast a touch spell through your familiar: An attack spell? M: Yes R: Yes

12. Direct a spell such as Flaming sphere (no attack, no target, no area... still offensive): M: No R: Don't Know

 

[RigaMortus]

I don't think casting a Detect spell would make one lose invisibility. It is not targetting an opponent, it is not damaging an opponent, and it is not an offensive act towards an opponent.

Same thing with a Darkness/Light spell. Couldn't one then argue that if you were invisible and lit a torch, if an enemy was within the area that the torch lit up, you would lose invisibility?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I don't think casting a Detect spell would make one lose invisibility. It is not targetting an opponent, it is not damaging an opponent, and it is not an offensive act towards an opponent.

Same thing with a Darkness/Light spell. Couldn't one then argue that if you were invisible and lit a torch, if an enemy was within the area that the torch lit up, you would lose invisibility?

The problem, of course, is this line:

For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.

It doesn't say, "any spell that does damage" or "any spell that requires a saving throw" or what have you. It states, "any spell." As I mentioned below, however, I think this is pretty silly (though I understand the reasoning behind the rule).

 

[Thanee]

Yes:

- cast a Dispel Magic whose area of effect includes an enemy
- cast a Forceful Hand or similar spell
- cast a Wall of Fire nearby an enemy
- drop something casually from above an enemy
- cast a touch spell through Spectral Hand
- cast a touch spell through your familiar
- direct a spell such as Flaming sphere (no attack, no target, no area... still offensive)

No:

- cast a Detect spell whose area of effect includes an enemy
- cast a non-damaging fog spell whose area of effect includes an enemy
- cast a light/darkness spell whose area of effect includes an enemy
- cast a Wall of Iron and let it 50% fall on an enemy
- teleport something above an enemy, and let it fall

Bye
Thanee

 

[Demoquin]

could one pickpocket while invisible?

 

[Thanee]

Sure.

Bye
Thanee

 

[fett527]

Yes:



No:



Bye
Thanee

I'd agree with Thanee. 100%

 

[RigaMortus]

The problem, of course, is this line:



It doesn't say, "any spell that does damage" or "any spell that requires a saving throw" or what have you. It states, "any spell." As I mentioned below, however, I think this is pretty silly (though I understand the reasoning behind the rule).

You forgot the rest of the quote:

(Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions)

So the invisible character could just percieve a normally hostile orc as not being a foe.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So the invisible character could just percieve a normally hostile orc as not being a foe.

That doesn't work, I'm afraid, barring some pretty scary szizo .. schizo ... craziness.

Otherwise, what prevents you from saying, "I'm casting this fireball into that mass of orcs over there. I don't really think of them as foes, so much as friends I just haven't met yet. So, I stay invisible, right?"

No one would let that fly, I imagine ...