Whirlwind Attack and Swarms

[RigaMortus2]

Actually, per the swarm rules, cleave/great cleave is sort of built in when you make an attack (even for people that don't have those feats). When you damage a swarm, it is assumed you are killing off multiple vermin/creatures at once.

 

[Shallown]

A swarm is a swarm it is not a group of bats or beetles or anything else in the rules sense. What actually makes the swarm has little to do with the fact it is a swarm.

But just to add some fun from the whirlwind attack I would probably allow it to act as an area affect since it targets everything within reach like a burst spell effect and allow someone to inflict 1.5 damage. Though to be honest that damage for most swarms is ignored.

later

 

[Voadam]

Cleave or whirlwind attack on a swarm.

"You kill several individual beasties but it seems to have had no effect on the great horde as a whole."

 

[Artoomis]

You know you're still allowed to give the gist, right?

Anyway - my take would be to let whirlwind attack do regular damage. ...

...For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet—gigantic hordes are actually composed of dozens of swarms in close proximity. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. It makes saving throws as a single creature. ...A weapon with a special ability such as flaming or frost deals its full energy damage with each hit, even if the weapon’s normal damage can’t affect the swarm.

So a whirlwind attack can attack the mutliple swarms that make up a gigantic horde, but only doing energy damage.

That it, I think.

 

[Saeviomagy]

The rules are not vauge at all, you just don't like them.

Sure they are. First, they're different in two different places. Second, they list "weapon" damage. Does that include alchemist's fire? It's a weapon. They also reference spells that affect a single target. Does that apply to rays? They're not 'target' spells, they're effect spells. After saying that weapon damage has no effect, they state that area-of-effect weapons do an extra 50% damage. At least in my mind, whirlwind attack is an area-of-effect weapon attack. It hits an area, doesn't it?

In short, they need some clearing up.

 

[Crothian]

Cleave or whirlwind attack on a swarm.

"You kill several individual beasties but it seems to have had no effect on the great horde as a whole."

but if they have great cleave wouldn't they be able to keep killing things till it has an effect?

 

[jgbrowning]

I'd let my PC get one extra attack vrs a mob if they had Cleave and two extra attacks if they had great cleave.

No need to let mechanics to simplify combat get in the way of mechanics designed to make combat more fun, IMO.

joe b.

 

[frankthedm]

Sure they are. First, they're different in two different places.

That I'll agree with you on since all swarms are in the same grouping in the MM http://d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#swarmSubtype

Second, they list "weapon" damage. Does that include alchemist's fire? It's a weapon.

That also can deal splash damage to an area.

They also reference spells that affect a single target. Does that apply to rays? They're not 'target' spells, they're effect spells.

Rays still affect a single target no matter how you try and read the way they work. You kill / petrify/ fatige/ one bug and that is of no concequence to the swarm. If the swarm has a "hive mind" you can enslave that with enchantments.

After saying that weapon damage has no effect, they state that area-of-effect weapons do an extra 50% damage. At least in my mind, whirlwind attack is an area-of-effect weapon attack. It hits an area, doesn't it?

No, it gives you one attack on each creature you threaten. Swarms operate as one very weapon resitant critter for weapon attacks.

 

[Sanackranib]

whirlwind would help you aginst being overwelmed by a lot of small or tiny creatures like kobolds or some fairy creatures (mobs) and creatures with individual hit points. it wouldnt help you aginst a swarm ie insect plague or summon swarm spell since the "swarm" has a pool of hit points and isnt rated on individual hit points thus it attacks or does damage as a single entity and as frank pointed out you would get 1 attack aginst it and most weapons would do little or no damage. a flaming bust weapon on the other hand might disrupt it.

 

[Saeviomagy]

That I'll agree with you on since all swarms are in the same grouping in the MM http://d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#swarmSubtype

That also can deal splash damage to an area.

But they're a weapon. Therefore they deal no damage to swarms. See the problem?

Rays still affect a single target no matter how you try and read the way they work. You kill / petrify/ fatige/ one bug and that is of no concequence to the swarm. If the swarm has a "hive mind" you can enslave that with enchantments.

The problem is that D&D spells have very specific language. Spells have a 'target' entry or an 'effect' entry. Ray spells have an 'effect' entry. And if that's NOT what was intended, then they should avoid the language. In fact, if what you say is truly what was intended, then swarms should simply be immune to spells that don't affect an area.

No, it gives you one attack on each creature you threaten. Swarms operate as one very weapon resitant critter for weapon attacks.

And fireball does X damage to each critter in the area. What's your point?