Whirlwindy, sneak-attacking invisible guy!

[Pielorinho]

Sosh the rogue/fighter decides to learn the secret of Whirlwind Attack. She convinces the party sorcerer to cast Invisibility on her, and (stifling her evil snickers) waits for the bad guys to approach. (For this example, let's assume combat has begun, so they're not flatfooted).

As soon as she's surrounded by bad guys, she lets loose with a whirlwind attack, tagging each one of them.

Whom does she sneak-attack?

My vague impression is that only the first one is sneak-attacked: that after her first attack she's visible and therefore they're not denied their dex-bonus. However, I can't quite remember how this works. Can anyone verify or shoot down this theory?

Thanks!
Daniel

 

[Crothian]

They all get sneak attacked.

 

[Nifft]

Pielorinho: I'd agree with your interpretation, that she selects one to sneak attack (the first one she attacks), and she's visible after that.

I'll just bet she's looking forward to Improved Invisibility.

-- N

 

[Crothian]

If a character has multiple attacks because of high BAB or two weapon fighting, don't they get sneak attack with all those attacks?

An invisible character is also presumible unbknown to the defenders, so they would lose their Dex to AC becasue of that and won't gain it aback till they get to go.

 

[Hypersmurf]

My vague impression is that only the first one is sneak-attacked: that after her first attack she's visible and therefore they're not denied their dex-bonus. However, I can't quite remember how this works. Can anyone verify or shoot down this theory?

I'd certainly agree with that.

After all, from the SRD, Improved Whirlwind Attack:
Normal: Without this feat, using the Whirlwind Attack feat requires a full attack action, and the character can take a 5-foot step between any two of the attacks.

Since you can take a 5' step between two attacks in a Whirlwind Attack, they must happen sequentially - you could drop one opponent, step into the space he formerly occupied, and then hit the next person.

So the invisibility drops after the first attack and before the second - since all the attacks happen sequentially and not simultaneously, you are no longer 'Attacker Invisible' when you make the second attack, and gain no benefits for being 'Attacker Invisible'.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If a character has multiple attacks because of high BAB or two weapon fighting, don't they get sneak attack with all those attacks?

No.

An invisible character is also presumible unbknown to the defenders, so they would lose their Dex to AC becasue of that and won't gain it aback till they get to go.

They lose their Dex bonus to AC against an invisible attacker. Once you've made your first attack, you're not an invisible attacker any more.

If I'm invisible, and I attack you, you lose your Dex bonus against me. If Bob then attacks you - he isn't invisible - you retain your Dex bonus against him, right? Even though you haven't had your next turn yet?

It's exactly the same, except I'm both invisible me and Bob in this example.

-Hyp.

 

[ToddSchumacher]

If a character has multiple attacks because of high BAB or two weapon fighting, don't they get sneak attack with all those attacks?


An invisible character is also presumible unbknown to the defenders, so they would lose their Dex to AC becasue of that and won't gain it aback till they get to go.

Opponents get their DEX back as soon as they can see you, right after your first attack. So no sneak attacking unless you qualify in some other manner (Such as flanking).

With Whirlwind you forgo all your iterative attacks for one roll that is applied to everyone, So I think The sneak attack would apply to everyone.

Manyshot also uses one roll, but specifically states that special damage only applies to the first roll. Whrilwind doesn't say so.

Unless some eratta is out that I am unaware of.

 

[Hypersmurf]

With Whirlwind you forgo all your iterative attacks for one roll that is applied to everyone, So I think The sneak attack would apply to everyone.

No, it's one attack roll for each opponent. Not one attack roll for all opponents.

If I say to you and your two friends "I have one pie for each of you", how many pies are there?

-Hyp.

 

[Crothian]

They lose their Dex bonus to AC against an invisible attacker. Once you've made your first attack, you're not an invisible attacker any more.

If I'm invisible, and I attack you, you lose your Dex bonus against me. If Bob then attacks you - he isn't invisible - you retain your Dex bonus against him, right? Even though you haven't had your next turn yet?

It's exactly the same, except I'm both invisible me and Bob in this example.

-Hyp.

Isn't the character flatfooted though? I can see it if the invisible person attacks in the middle of combat, but that seems rare. Most of the time the invisble person attacks starts combat, so the character would be flatfooted until they go. So, the WWA would sneak attack everyone since there was suprise.

 

[Hypersmurf]

For what it's worth:

From Rules of the Game: Sneak Attacks (Part 2):
Perhaps the most common form of total concealment is the invisibility spell. A regular invisibility effect is broken when you attack. If you begin your turn under such an effect and you're making multiple attacks, you'll be invisible only for the first attack and your opponent will be denied Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) against that first attack.

-Hyp.