Whither Summoners and Animal Companions?

[Jefe Bergenstein]

What's wrong with things taking a bit of time, whether it's talking with the gate guard, running 10 summoned idiots in a combat, or whatever? The adventure doesn't *have* to be finished in one session....have patience.

Lanefan

Having a bit of patience is one thing. Having a tolerance for boredom is another.

Its part of the 20 minutes of fun crammed into 4 hours thing. My real life is actually too valuable to waste sitting at a table while a drama whore spends 30 minutes pretending to buy 50 feet of rope. The same applies to someone casting summon monster 3, and cranking out 5 fire beetles with their awe inspiring +1 to hit. Its too much time jacking around with things that are marginal at best.

 

[Klaus]

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I really hope to never see another summoner or animal companion again.

Twiddling my thumbs while the Druid takes THREE turns for each one of mine?

Yeah, not so much fun.

OR...


you could jump in on the fun and offer to roll for the Summoned Monster or Animal Companion.

 

[I'm A Banana]

"OK, now it's Eric the Necromancer's turn. Everyone else take five while he resolves the movements and actions for his seven monsters, then his own."

One word: Swarms

Or perhaps more aptly, Mobs. Zombies in 4e are already supposed to work like a "wall of flesh." If a necromancer can call up this wall of flesh in an instant, maybe it will be quick to run.

And I'm all for having the summoner loose their turn to directing their summoned critter/swarm/mob.

Come to think of it, "mook rules" could be useful for this, too. "I summon a celestial army!" could really mean "I summon mooks!"

 

[SkidAce]

Having a bit of patience is one thing. Having a tolerance for boredom is another.

Its part of the 20 minutes of fun crammed into 4 hours thing. My real life is actually too valuable to waste sitting at a table while a drama whore spends 30 minutes pretending to buy 50 feet of rope.

Isn't the drama whore your friend, who is either tolorated while he has fun or talked to so everyone can share the wealth?

 

[IceFractal]

A couple things:

First off, I'd be ok with a "single creature" limit, as long as there were compensating factors:
1) Stronger than current summons.
2) Standard action to summon, not 1 round.
3) Does not make you lose your actions.

This third point is imporant. Two creatures is not an excessive amount. You wouldn't whine if the DM put one extra monster into the combat, so don't whine if the summoner has one minion + themselves.


Secondly, this brings up another point:
In many of the 4E previews, it's been mentioned that 4E is better at handling large numbers of monsters - that PCs will be up against often 4x as many opponents as before.

So: Why is the summoner having 2-3 minions running around a problem, when the DM is controlling 8-12 monsters already? If you don't think the player can run them quickly, then have the DM do it until the player gets the knack.

 

[Aldarc]

The warlock may be something of a summoner. Who knows?

 

[ptolemy18]

This third point is imporant. Two creatures is not an excessive amount. You wouldn't whine if the DM put one extra monster into the combat, so don't whine if the summoner has one minion + themselves.

I agree with IceFractal, and I also like Klaus's idea -- let the PC who isn't doing anything play the summoned monster/animal companion/hireling/henchman/familiar/whatever.

Although admittedly that is a totally metagame solution and doesn't really solve the main issue. But metagame solutions (such as tailoring encounters to suit the party, and keeping everyone involved to an approximately equal degree) are part of good DMing. I generally like the opportunity to play random NPCs and hirelings and such, when my existing character is out of commission for some reason. Some people don't, I suppose, but I do.

 

[Gort]

I hope they give summoned creatures a fixed duration in 4th ed, something like five rounds total. One round per caster level means that summons are pointless at first level and stick around forever at 20th.

 

[Klaus]

I agree with IceFractal, and I also like Klaus's idea -- let the PC who isn't doing anything play the summoned monster/animal companion/hireling/henchman/familiar/whatever.

Although admittedly that is a totally metagame solution and doesn't really solve the main issue. But metagame solutions (such as tailoring encounters to suit the party, and keeping everyone involved to an approximately equal degree) are part of good DMing. I generally like the opportunity to play random NPCs and hirelings and such, when my existing character is out of commission for some reason. Some people don't, I suppose, but I do.

Real story:

Back in Forge of Fury, the roper that is in the adventure dropped the party's Ranger. Instead of sitting about doing nothing, the player chose to play the thoqqua summoned by the party's cleric. In fact, he KILLED the roper while playing that thoqqua (fire vulnerability and all that).