Who authors the shared fiction in RPGing?

pemerton

Legend
This topic has come up in a couple of recent threads - this one on GMing, and this one on railroading. (EDIT: And also in one of the S&S threads.)

There is a very traditional, even orthodox way, of authoring the fiction in RPGing:

1. The GM prepares material (content, backstory) in advance of play - quintessentially a map and a key, plus associated notes which might include timelines of events etc.​
2. The players build PCs. This may be done independently of step 1, or perhaps the GM tells the players a bit about the material s/he's prepared, or perhaps there's even a bit of back-and-forth between players and GM (eg a player wants to play a PC with a pirate background, and so the GM adds some notes about pirates to his/her prepared material).​
3. The game starts with the PCs at a particular place on the map, at a particular time. The GM consults his/her notes (map keys, timelines etc) and tells the players what their PCs are experiencing - I will call this framing a scene. The players declare actions for their PCs - some of these are resolved by consulting the notes (eg the notes tell us what will be found if a certain rock is lifted up, or how a NPC will react if asked a certain question), and some by resolving checks, and maybe some by a bit of both.​
4. Eventually the players will declare actions that move their PCs to a different part of the map; and/or the passage of in-game time will lead the GM to have regard to some other aspect of his/her prep (eg a timeline with certain events noted on it) and therefore we go back to a new iteration of step 3.​

The basic structure here is GM prep and material => GM scene framing => player action declaration => outcomes that flow from the interplay of prep plus actions.

One variation on this structure, found in many modules (eg the 3E D&D module Bastion of Broken souls) is to encourage the GM to create new material between step 4 and returning to step 3 so that s/he can stick to a pre-conceived series of framings. In Bastion of Broken souls, this takes the form of advice about new villains to introduce if the main villain is killed, so that there will still be an in-fiction rationale for framing the scenes set out in the module, with the "second string" taking the place of the antagonist the GM has killed.

But anyway, here's a different way of doing authorship in RPGing. It is not a variant on the traditional structure, but rather a pretty different approach:

1. Prior to play, the players and GM agree on a genre, go back-and-forth to settle some basic questions about the setting, and the players build PCs. Those PCs reflect the player-GM back-and-forth; and those PCs have clear goals and trajectories that emerge from their agreed backstories.​
2. Play begins with the GM framing a scene that speaks to those PC goals and trajectories. Because a scene needs content - a place, maybe some other people - framing the scene means authoring some content.​
3. The players declare actions for their PCs that engage the scene. If the GM has done his/her job properly at step 2, then the players' declared actions can be expected to be fairly vigorous rather than tentative - more about impacting the situation then just finding out more about it. Some of those actions will change story elements already present in the scene (eg something gets stolen, or purchased, or broken; a NPC gets persuaded, or scared off, or killed; etc). Some of those actions will seek to introduce new story elements - new content and material - into the scene (eg learning something that wasn't already established at step 1 o step 2); different RPG systems have different ways of handling this, but however it's done there are obviously no pre-authored notes that can be referred to by anyone to provide an answer.​
4. Eventually the scene will resolve, but the outcomes of action resolution and/or unresolved goals and trajectories will provide material allowing the GM to frame a new scene - return to Step 3.​

The basic structure of this alternative approach is shared minimal prep (genre + PC backstory and context) => GM scene framing => player action declarations => outcomes of action resolution including new material being created. Some of that new material might be created by the GM - eg imagine a scene which, as framed, includes a building, and suppose that a player declares that his/her PC sneaks into a building; the check fails; and the GM narrates the failure by saying "You try to sneak in, but as you creep up the stairs you see someone who looks rather drunk, half-sitting, half-lying on the staircase landing; as you see her she sees you too, half-opening her eyes and her hand going to the sword tucked into her belt." Now it's established, as part of the content of the setting, that in this building there is this person in this state doing this thing.

Some of that new material might be created by a player - eg imagine the same scene, and another player declares that s/he is looking for any signs that the building might be more than it appears to be. The GM asks what the player has in mind, and the player replies "Well, this place seems pretty grim and so I'm wondering if there might be some kind of echo of this building in the Shadowfell". The GM calls for an Arcana or Aura-Reading or <insert system-appropriate ability> check, the player succeeds, and so the GM narrates that the PC can, indeed - with his/her Arcane senses - detect a Shadowfell echo of this building, that is the source of grim malaise about the place.

One generic label for this sort of approach is "no myth" - it's not perfect, but it tries to capture the idea that material - setting content and backstory is not there from the start as an input, but rather is an output of play, of framing and action resolution, that grows over time. Another generic label is "story now" - because the emphasis of play is on the immediacy of the situation and the imperatives to action, rather than a sense that a significant focus of play is coming to grips with the content (maps, keys, notes, timelines) that have already been authored by the GM.

Just as there can be variations of the traditional approach, so there can be variations of this alternative approach. For instance, the GM might use a setting book to help get material for framing scenes, or to help get material for narrating consequences like the drunk warrior on the landing; and different systems will have different ways of resolving action declarations, particularly those that implicate new player-author content like Shadowfell echoes. What is key, though, even when a setting book is being used, is that the content is introduced as an output of play; it's not treated as a constraining input in the manner of the traditional approach.

Systems which are particularly associated with some form of "no myth"/"story now" include Apocalypse World, Dungeon World (which calls it "draw maps, leave blanks"), Burning Wheel, Blades in the Dark (which is also a good example of a system that uses a setting book to obtain material to help with framing scenes and narrating consequences); indeed, many "indie" RPGs.

I think it can help in many discussions, both about D&D but even moreso when branching beyond D&D, to recognise that these difference are possible, and that there is no single way of approaching the authorship of the fiction that is identical to RPGing as such.
 
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Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
I think that's a fair assessment of the two. What I find very interesting are attempts to blend the two in various ways, which you find, for example, in a lot of indie OSR products. What seems to be missing is a vocabulary we can use to describe what is happening in cases like that. More specifically, a vocabulary that will support (or even simply allow) an account that compares the same kind of effort in two cases. Or to describe the difference between OSR product one and the tradition approach. I think that vocabulary is at least suggested by some of the work you've done here. I'm interested to see what others have to say about it.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I think that's a fair assessment of the two. What I find very interesting are attempts to blend the two in various ways, which you find, for example, in a lot of indie OSR products. What seems to be missing is a vocabulary we can use to describe what is happening in cases like that. More specifically, a vocabulary that will support (or even simply allow) an account that compares the same kind of effort in two cases. Or to describe the difference between OSR product one and the tradition approach. I think that vocabulary is at least suggested by some of the work you've done here. I'm interested to see what others have to say about it.
"Myth Lite" or "Diet Myth"?
 

pemerton

Legend
I think that's a fair assessment of the two. What I find very interesting are attempts to blend the two in various ways, which you find, for example, in a lot of indie OSR products. What seems to be missing is a vocabulary we can use to describe what is happening in cases like that. More specifically, a vocabulary that will support (or even simply allow) an account that compares the same kind of effort in two cases. Or to describe the difference between OSR product one and the tradition approach. I think that vocabulary is at least suggested by some of the work you've done here. I'm interested to see what others have to say about it.
I think that Ron Edwards' essay on setting-oriented narrativism is relevant to this. But Edwards work needs mediation in order to bring it to ENworld!

In my post - which I think you picked up - I tried to say a bit about the role of setting material in the "no myth" approach. My way to elaborate on that would be to develop what counts as part of the process of framing.
 


What is 'No myth' ? Keeps popping up in discussions.

The basic structure of this alternative approach is shared minimal prep (genre + PC backstory and context) => GM scene framing => player action declarations => outcomes of action resolution including new material being created.

One generic label for this sort of approach is "no myth" - it's not perfect, but it tries to capture the idea that material - setting content and backstory is not there from the start as an input, but rather is an output of play, of framing and action resolution, that grows over time.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
The essay by Edwards is good, but I think his example of setting-centric story-now play is, um, a little odd. Perhaps extreme is closer to what I mean. Personally, I use varying levels of pre-developed 'setting' in my story now games. My guideline is to have enough material for the choices made in character creation to be coherent. In Apocalypse World, much of that same sort of material is actually built right into the playbooks, which is cool. However, if I'm running my own setting, or my own game, I need to give the players some idea of the world they will inhabit, you simply can't play without that, and that means prep. I will draw a distinction here between campaign prep and session prep. I am indexing the former rather than the latter

This brings me to my second point, story-now is not, as some people believe, absent of any prep when prep is at least partially synonymous with 'setting'. It can be, but isn't always, nor does it need to be. Broadly speaking this can and is often accomplished by group world building in some form, but that isn't always the case. I find no-prep more common in games set in some version of modern earth, which has as a side benefit, enormous setting knowledge built in to each player. Fantasy and Sci-fi games replace that real-world knowledge with setting prep, in a huge variety of ways depending on the exact game in question. I think most of those examples escape the orbit of Edward's essay and probably need their own vocabulary and explication.
 

One point where you will run into a lot of wrangling is in Step 1 @pemerton. That is to say, plenty of people have extensive discussions between players and GMs leading up to the development of characters, setting design/selection, probably even rules selection (or at least customization). This is not necessarily prefatory to a 'Story Now' or 'Zero Myth' kind of game.

Yet I have, MANY times here, been told that because there was such collaboration, and then usually ongoing collaboration at various points, on various elements and maybe even direction of the narrative, that "there is no meaningful difference."

Now, to me, and I am expecting to you as well, there IS a meaningful difference in that Story Now is a much more immediate and constant interplay between developing fiction and the process of playing the game on a minute-by-minute basis. A game where every week between sessions the GM asks a few of the players what sort of stuff they want to do, how did things go, maybe exchanges some ideas on material to use next, is one thing. A Dungeon World game in which players can and do, by dint of the mechanics, obligate the GM to bind himself to specific facts during play, is a rather different beast, and is the sort of thing really meant by Story Now.

I think Edwards does capture this kind of distinction, and I think generally it isn't problematic to use a lot of his terminology and concepts. My feeling is that there's more of a 'political' issue with it in the sense that it has been promoted as a more modern form of play, and there are those who feel they are thus being relegated to practitioners of a more 'primitive' kind of play. I don't hold by that, BTW, which is why it is in scare quotes of course. It kind of interestingly compares with other discussions of the use of that term, though! lol.
 

Reynard

Legend
I call it "naked GMing" and I try to do it once a year: gather a group of trusted players for a long weekend at a secluded location and just play entirely off the cuff for 18-24 hours of table time. It is always great fun and sometimes even results in someone one might be able to describe as "coherent."

I'm not sure how I feel about the "no myth" descriptor, but then I don't generally like "Forge style" terminology.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I call it "naked GMing" and I try to do it once a year: gather a group of trusted players for a long weekend at a secluded location and just play entirely off the cuff for 18-24 hours of table time. It is always great fun and sometimes even results in someone one might be able to describe as "coherent."

I'm not sure how I feel about the "no myth" descriptor, but then I don't generally like "Forge style" terminology.
And I'm not a fan of blatant genetic fallacy arguments.

I also don't like some of the Forge terminology, but it isn't because it's Forge stuff, it's because I find a specific term to not be sufficient for my needs. Usually because it's inflammatory, obfuscatory, and/or confusing. No Myth, on the other hand, I find to be a good term -- it's not inflammatory, it's not confusing, it's a fun term for no or very little initial setting. Dungeon World is meant to be run No Myth, as is Apocalypse World. You start play with a genre concept and build some of the initial bones of the world together alongside the characters to inhabit them. The rest is fleshed out in play. There literally is no myth here in play.
 

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