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Message: <blockquote data-quote="barsoomcore" data-source="post: 673545" data-attributes="member: 812">Well, I understand that, but I KNOW that I will take action to stop wrong-doing without anger. In fact, I find that I'm better at stopping it when I don't let anger rule me. When I am calm and rational is when I am most effective.I find this is true in the people I interact with. When someone wants something from me, their best bet is always to approach me with a straightforward request. People who rage at me only make me dislike them. Distrust them.Explain why what I am doing is causing you pain and I'm much more inclined to stop than if you come hollering at me filled with rage. That sort of thing only makes me want to hurt you back, and then things get ugly and nobody gets what they want. But approaching me with respect and allowing that there may be more than one side to the story (even if only one side can ultimately be right) -- that gets my sympathy and makes me want to not only do what you ask but look for more ways in which I can help out.I have to say I'm mystified. Surely either I'm right or I'm wrong? If I'm wrong then how does my foolishness make you angry? If I'm right then likewise with my incredible wisdom and insight? Honestly, I don't understand. If you think I'm a fool go right ahead and say so. If I'm being offensive please tell me how so that I can stop doing it. I have no wish to be offensive, I assure you.I don't think that trying to increase understanding and wisdom is in any way sad and pathetic. Thanks for making the effort. I am trying to understand, I promise.Fears, insecurities, shames and sobbing are silly? Why do you think so? Surely they are painful. If they were not they would not be fears, insecurities, shames and sobbings. Surely we all of us struggle with these things every day. From childhood to death we try to soldier on in the face of so many voices and pains and fears telling us we'll never succeed. Or maybe it's just me. Oh, and Shakespeare. Oh, and Homer. Oh, and Akira Kurosawa.Sorry for being a bit facetious there but I do think the weight of human culture and art indicates that fears, insecurities, shames and sobbings are anything but silly. That they are great burdens we all carry with us. That they define us and drive us into the things we do.For me, the fact that an action is wrong, harmful or detrimental is signal enough that I must rally against it. My anger isn't in it. My understanding is. Can't you make that determination regardless of your anger?Ooh, zero-sum games! Okay, so what is your idea -- the idea that's in contention with mine? That anger is a signal to rally against Bad Stuff?Well, but wait a minute, I still don't get where your anger comes from. Why are you angry just because I offer an opposing viewpoint (if in fact I do)? Surely if your idea is superior it will prove to be so and you will be triumphant. And if it is not you'll have learned something very important and you will be triumphant. Either way, I fail to see the need for anger.Well, only if it's wrong. And if it's wrong then surely you're better off without it? Surely the best course is to test opposing ideas, see which one comes out stronger? And then choose that one.But how is finding out that one of your ideas is inferior or superior to another idea dangerous to one's self? This doesn't make sense to me. Surely part of strengthening one's self is exploring ideas and beliefs to see which ones are true and which ones are not.Survival is more reliably found by testing one's ideas and seeing if they are correct or not, rather than angrily defending them against all comers.So, your notion is that anger is a signal that you need to fight against Bad Stuff. Thoughts, actions, what have you, that are wrong, hurtful or detrimental. And further, that in being so, anger is NOT a sign that you have problems or issues that remain unresolved. That is, that anger cannot be both. Well, I have a few objections to this argument.One: anger is a signal you need to fight against Bad Stuff. I disagree. I believe anger is one type of reaction to the realisation of Bad Stuff. That is, I propose that what actually happens is that I recognize something as Bad Stuff and THEN become angry. That is, the signal is recognition, not the anger. The anger is a result of the recognition. My proof for this is that people have varied reactions to recognizing Bad Stuff and not all of them become angry. Therefore, there must be a recognition that is not anger but precedes the anger, even if only by a minuscule amount.So anger is not a signal you need to fight Bad Stuff.Two: anger is NOT a sign that you have problems or issues that remain unresolved. I disagree. I think you'll find most anger management systems disagree with you on this as well. Not many hold the same opinion I do on anger, I'll admit, but all of the ones I've investigated do certainly consider anger a sign of unresolved issues within the person suffering from the anger. Further, I'll point out that unresolved issues are usually so because they are not conscious to us. They affect us indirectly -- for example through the emergence of anger. My previous posts to jdavis have outlined many of my thoughts on anger and so far I have not seen you offer any rebuttal other than the term "silly", which I believe I disposed of above. If you have any other rebuttals to my idea I would be pleased to hear them.So anger is a signal you have problems or issues that remain unresolved.Three: anger cannot be both. Why not? What prevents anger, should it be discovered that it is in fact a signal of things to fight against, from also being a signal of things to resolve within ourselves? I don't see any inherent contradiction here. Many of our emotion responses come from a multitude of sources, so why not anger?So anger could be both a signal of things to fight against and a signal of troubles within ourselves.I enjoy debate very much, Wolv0rine, and I am often so eager in my desire to advance my arguments that I speak harshly or more heatedly than I intended. Please believe that if I have done so in this post, it is not out of contempt or a desire to offend you but only from my excitement in having my ideas explored by thoughtful folks who can expose the weaknesses in my thoughts. You have proven to be a thoughtful folk and I look forward very much to your responses.</blockquote>

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