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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Wolv0rine" data-source="post: 673836" data-attributes="member: 9045">Oh, I didn't mean to cast doubt that you would.  For myself, at least if only for myself, I know that anger is my best, most likely path to action, and over 85% of the time the most successful.  This doesn't mean charge in blind like a bull and killkillkill, it can be as simple as growing angry at a situation and not being able to stop myself from acting on it.  But I do think that anger could be said to be 100% of "defensive" action.  That could be debated, but I see defense as action taken due to anger at foreseen consequenses (okay, I have never put it that way, and probably never will again, but it sounds right, right now.  hehehe).Here I can only agree.  I do not respond to anger well either.  I do not think that anger is to be used off-the-cuff, the situation has to warrent it in some manner.  Psycho-gramma tries to poison the childrens' minds...anger warrented.  Numbnuts driver cuts me off in traffic, putting my life and possibly my family's in peril just so he can get one car-length closer to the stoplight than I got to?  That is a case of putting someone else into a situation of gambling their lives against the value of 1 car-length (in a lot of cases), without their consent or them having the option of not playing your life-or-death game.  I think that warrents at the very least as much rage as you can vent at the abscentee jerk.  He did put 0 value on your life a second ago, after all.  If that's not worth a bit of anger, what is?I'll try to illustrate what I mean about the maxi-level-event theory I mentioned earlier.You see, the maxi-level-event isn't a case of superior ideology vs. misguided ideology.  It's a case of my life vs. your life, my freedom vs. your freedom, my god vs. your god, my right to live as I please vs. your right to live as you please (in a situation where they cannot both co-exist).  It's a case of "if you're right, then I lose all access to everything but your opinion forever.  I become nothing but your mindless slave for the rest of my life, and the lifetimes of all my decendants throughout time".  So, seeing if someone else's opinion - which differes from mine in a way that the two cannot mesh - is "better" or "more correct" or whatever is not an option.  I know, the maxi-level-event is a hard concept to really convey to someone who hasn't thought of it.  It's like taking an idea, or a conflicting set of ideas, and expanding the situations/conflict to it's biggest possible equivalent.  The easiest scenereo I can think of to try to illustrate a MLE would be "If it were up for vote as a national law against my opinion", because that's a situation where one or the other will win, but which one is 'right' or 'better' won't likely have much effect of which one wins (meaning, the one that wins out will not neccesarilly be correct, just enforcable by armed police), and will have long-term, long-reaching effects into the life of everyone in the country.  If you can grasp how two conflicting opinions can be extrapolated into that sort of situation ("What!  His opinion won by 1 vote!  We are all obligated by law to think what he thinks, and act in all ways at all times in perfect accordance with that?!" said Wolvorine, as the MLE exploded into horrible resignation), then you should be able to see where I'm trying to go with the idea of justifiable and logically sound subconscious reasoning behind betting angry at an opposing viewpoint.  I mean small-time MLEs do happen all the time.  Take prayer in the school-system (my opinion?  If you want to make my kid pray, I get to break your legs), or book burning "If they hadn't burned the Library of Alexandria...*sigh*"), law-enforced seat belts (should be my choice, really, I think they're more dangerous than helpful in certain situations).  All these show instances where someone who had a different opinion than mine tried to impose that opinion on everyone else.  And that was a danger to my way of life. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  I'm not saying that this is a conscious thought-process in most people's minds, it's a theory on the sub-conscious thought-process that leads us to get angry at people who think differently from us.I just meant that I'm still sitting here replying in this thread!  LOL*chuckles*  Yes, completely silly.  Entirely silly.  Laughably absurd.  In this context, mind you, not in-and-of-themselves. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />  Fear's scary, insecurities are paralyzing, shame burns, and sobbing cleanses the soul.  But I don't think any or all of these things are always the cause of anger.  And that was your original arguement, that this was always the case, for everyone, everywhere on the planet.  And I stand smiling, hands on hips, in disagreement of that supposition. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> I think it is anger that ignites rallying.  Righteous indignation, rage, intolerance of something (rightly or wrongly), what have you.  Anger has many forms, many names.  I think it's what causes action against a percieved wrongness.But if my definition of right falls before your definition of right (between which there is likely no such thing as all-encompassing, all-definitive right), then it doesn't matter if I get to use your right, I lost mine and thus I die.  It's a win/lose 1/0 kind of binary concept.  It's admittedly very rough, and translates really badly...  but if I can get the idea across, I think you'll go "D'oh!  Yeah I see!"  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> You had it pretty much right up until the "can't be both" part.  Of course it can be both, that's part of my arguement.  I know these things tend to drift wildly, and I've jumped in and out of the flow of conversation a couple of times through the thread, but you said that you felt that there was this thing about anger that was always true, of everyone.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  But what IS anger then, save for the will, desire, and determination to put yourself against something that you've identified as Bad Stuff?  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  When you identify something as Bad Stuff as lack the will or confidence to put yourself against it, then you have Fear.  This is true.  I also consider such a source (anger management systems) to be the highest form of bunk.  Right up there with 100% of all psychiatry, most of psychology, and every form of 'mental and emotional therapy'.  All - in my rocksteady opinion - definitively incorrect past, present, and future.  I once told a very locally well-respective psychiatrist (indeed, I've told many, all of whom I took the time to prove could not do what they claimed they could do) "Anyone who claims to know how the mind works is wrong, and a fool for having said they knew".  Now I really dig theorizing, but it's like Shroedinger's Box, you can't collapse the probability waveform without disrupting the waveform itself.  One day we'll know how the brain works, biologically.  But I've never believed we'll ever know much about how the Human Mind works.  Guesses on top of guesses. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I hope I managed to point out earlier in this post that by silly I meant "it's silly to say these are the cause, here, I think it's obviously not".  I'd never wish to cast those emotions as silly in and of themselves.And what prevents anger from being one OR the other?  I disagree that anger has much to do with "unresolved issues", which in my opinion is a psycho-babble BS phrase with little meaning.  Unresolved issues, like as if anyone has ever had none of those.  Imagine an entire life lived, and at no point was there ever a regret, never a case where that person could honestly say "I could have done that better" or "Choice B was superior, and I chose A", because even if you don't feel sad about those 'mistakes', they are still less-than-optimal outcomes that you had the chance to do better, and that's an "unresolved issue" too.  Anything that could have been better is one, and we all have hundreds.    Also, an Unresolved Conflict does not, in fact, have to be something you're unaware of.  It's just something you have not yet either come to terms with, or something you have not fully faced, or confronted, or admitted it's full importance.  It's anything that has an affect on you from within, that you haven't solved.  I'll go to my grave with unresolved issues about height, I'm nearly 32 and I don't think I'm getting any taller than 5'6" by this point.  But I don't feel anger over that issue.Ditto here, I'm something or an extremist (even among extremists!), and sometimes in my zest to get an idea across, I spill out generalities and babble around a point until I lose sight of it, trying to show it to someone else. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  Hopefully it's all about the joy of sounding really intellectual and shining our big words in the monitor-light, playing mental tag in the wee hours.  heheNo doubt I missed issues I meant to reply to in here, I've been taking hours and hours to reply in this thread, and that leads to broken and forgotten trains of thought and all.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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