Who would win?

[Wraithdrit]

I disagree. There is no reason the cleric would cast that. He is there to aid his fellow brothers, and they are only going to fight a small group, it should be a slaughter!

The only reason I think the Red Wizards would be this well prepared is that this ambush was intended for the adventurers. IE the Thayans came out here to ambush someone, so they have their plan already in place. They just get to use it on the Golden Swords instead. Bonus.

The Swords are also looking to ambush someone, so they are going to be bringing their own version of the above to the battle. They are going to have means to hide ready, camouflage netting, invis spells memmed, etc, and are not going to be ready for the sudden and brutal attack the Red Wizards are going to lay down.

See, the thing is that the Thayans are known for overkill. Red Wizards don't get involved in petty squabbles with non Red Wizards, but when they do they hit like the hammer of God. This Red Wizard is PEEVED (edited for grandmothers) and is out here to KILL whomever stole his item(s).

The party had better get the heck out of dodge or have some serious mojo ready if they are going to swing this battle against the Red Wizards.

 

[Breakdaddy]

i would agree with you Breakdaddy. but the premise is the monks are unaware.

it looks like from the setup the Red WIzards will get a surprise round.

Agreed, if the wizards have surprise on their side then the monks are toast.

 

[MarauderX]

Hmmm.... Maybe I have this wrong, but it would be the wizards that would be surprised, not the monks. So that may mean the wizards don't have the chance to put on any buffs, or have any spells prepped when the monks ambush them.

Let me play out a scenario for the supposed underdogs then... as it may depend heavily on the tactics used. Monks tend to be great wizard-killers, and are easy to build to be that way.

Sending all those monks with the faster movement, tumble and such, and they will be grappling those wizards in a round and dealing damage each round thereafter. The monks also have anti-spell abilities like Evasion and Still Mind, and with their higher saves they may not be touched by any spell, whether damaging or mind affecting. Using the many rogues for flanking could reduce the clerics in short order, leaving the wizard group without any healing, and the wizards will fall faster.

As the monks, I would have the monks ignore the fighters altogether by tumbling out of their way until the end of the fight, relying on enhancements like Mage Armor cast by your own wizards to raise ACs by 4 for the battle. Add in an Enlarged monk2/fighter2 with Great Throw and watch him rule the center of the battle by tossing the fighters in his threatened area, then when they stand have him toss them again as an AoO.

If they came in from all sides, the Enlarged monk(s) with Great Throw would go straight to the knights, fighters, warriors and/or clerics. The 'regular' monks would go straight for the wizards, the rogues could either help with flanking any wizards who made the grapple check or flank the clerics. The extra fighter 1(5) I would send in to help take out the clerics and wizards, as they would get chewed up easily by the knights or the other fighters.

The wizards could have a bunch of magic items that they could use when being grappled though, so they may be able to use them when they are wrapped up by a monk. The monks may need to disarm them during the grapple first, and could be annoying. Once the higher level wizards are done, the task remains to eliminate the clerics from healing any of them back up, which is where the rogues come in to tumble in their way and get AoOs. The Enlarged monks and anyone else around the knights will probably get kicked around by easily by them, so the clerics would need to either heal them, fight them, or hopefully a few of the wizards will have dropped and more monks will be able to get there to help them out. Once the wizards start dropping off, it will be more easy to overwealm the warriors and knights with shear numbers. It may be more of an advantage for any free monks to grapple the knights to prevent them from using Cleave of other feats they probably have. Having a rogue or two in there to flank helps a lot, and soon the knights and warriors will be thinned out while they hack down some peon troops that the clerics can heal up again.

Not that the fight would go that way, as dice rolls, feats, spells and such can really turn the tide of battle in any round. Overall, I think the wizard group still has the firepower and muscle to take down the monks since the monks can't deal out damage fast enough like they can.

 

[F5]

If the meeting is set up in the middle of the plains, you have to assume that there aren't many hiding places. The Red Wizards will be using magic to hide, obviously, so they will probably have scouts looking out for the party, so they can fire off invisibility spells, etc, when they are getting close. The Swords will be using stealth and skill to hide, but I don't see how they could approach the ambush site in the middle of an open plain without being seen by the wizards. If the Red Wizards see the Golden Swords before they can react, the Swords are toast.

Assuming the Swords are using some degree of stealth as they travel, I'd say to make a spot check for the Wizards. If they make it, they will lay some serious hurt on the Swords in the first round. If the swords can get in close somehow before the wizards notice them, then it's more evenly matched. Make the roll privately, and see which scenario the players are going to walk into.

Last question: how are the players traveling? Are they on horseback, or do they plan on just teleporting in? Keeping in mind that things like lightning bolts and Ice Storms are visible a long way off on open plains, they might have some forewarning of what's going down at the meeting site, if they're withing sight of it when the ruckus starts.

 

[Trellian]

They are on horseback, but its not that far out of the city (maybe a 20 minute ride). I originally planned on both sides appearing when the pcs are already there, but I decided against a long-winded battle. If I know my players right, they are sure to get in on the action, possibly siding with the 9 golden swords as the thayans killed one of their party members last session. I just don't have the time to create that many NPC's even though I can pull some of them off other sources.

It seems to me that the winner will most likely be decided on who (if any) gets a surprise round, and who wins initiative. Maybe I should do as you suggested, try a mass combat system. What system do you suggest I use? Btw, thanks for all the feedback!

 

[iwatt]

Why would the swords fight?

As F5 said, consider that the Wizards have outriders scouting for the approaching party.

But the swords, except for the Cleric I'm guessing, have probabbly got Good Hide modifiers. And would have good scouts riding point as well. They're Ninjas for god's sake, planning a double cross themselves. In my expreience, Double-crossers always expect to be double-crossed as well, so they'd aproach the rendezvous with great care and stealth as well.

So the thayans send the warrior and low level fighters out as scouts (they aren't much good for anything else). But I believe that the swords would have higer level rogues and monks acting as scouts themeselves(good hide, good spot). This would basically devolve to stealthy characters, picking off guards one by one.
From the 3.0 rules of Eunconter distance, if the Thayan outriders are standing still, and attempting to hide, the Spot DC for the swords to see them is of aproximately 25.
If the swords aproach stealthily (they are scouts after all) they'd gert some bonus to their hide (+5 for example)m so the thayans get the same spot DC of 25.

But one party conists of Monks and Rogues (spot as class skill, the monks have high wisdom). The thayans won't have the same spot. The eunconter distance for Grasslands, with little cover, is on average 420 ft. If neither succeeds at the spot check, the encounter will take place at 210 feet. wre Monk speed would take the day. If the thayans are on horse, they can't hide or be still, and the monks spot DC shifts to 16 (large, not still).

If they capture one of the warriors, they'l probably learn that a Red Wizard party is out there laid in ambush. Once you know a trap is set, it becomes a whole new deal. The swords could probably enlist the aid of the party, in a surprise battle. Probabbly wait for night, to take advantage of the huge sneak capacity of the swords.

As Wraith pointed out, unless the swords win the initiative and take out the high level wizards FAST, they'll get their asses handed to them, if the Red wizard really has the spells fort it. Remember he's an abjurer, and in 3,5 that means 3 barred schools. in 3.0, it would mean at least 2 as well. So the outcome is really tied into what spells he has.

But if the Swords lay their own counterambush, the Thayan party is toast.

 

[Wraithdrit]

In that case, the fight might turn out much different. My suggestion, decide what is best for the campaign and make it happen. Fighting that out will take all day. Don't do it.

The Reds still have firepower superiority, and a single cloudkill is still going to rock the world of the monks. The Thayan fighters are going to protect the wizards, and the armies are going to see each other from quite a distance, so that favors the red wizards as well.

So the party is standing around, two large forces show up on either side, and one starts lopping very deadly spells toward the other. Sounds interesting. If the PCs jump in they could definately sway the battle. Depends on their level.

 

[Trellian]

Party consists of : 6th lvl ranger (possibly 7th by the time), 4/2 ftr/rogue and 6th level rogue (more of a charisma rogue than a trapfinding rogue). The last party member died last session, and hasn't created a new one yet. But my guess is he will be a spellcaster.. sorcerer or wizard