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Why all the ritual hate?
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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 5088746" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>Well, it does, since the reason you don't hate rituals is because you have made them better than they are written to be.</p><p></p><p>Which is great, but that's a solution for you, at your table, with your specific group.</p><p></p><p>It doesn't mean that rituals don't deserve the hate. Perhaps if the other millions of people playing D&D hadn't thought of or implemented your specific fixes, they hate the rituals, because they are still expensive, bland, and overly specific. Because they're not at your table, haven't thought of your solutions, and so, they still have the problems that your group has fixed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Totally right, and great for you, but if you want an answer to the question, perhaps this is it: people have ritual hate because not everyone has a super DM who bends the rules to make rituals useful for people who like rituals.</p><p></p><p>Which is a problem. Having fun shouldn't require an excellent DM. If you can't get a good result without good DM improvisation, then the thing itself is borked. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't see "ritual components" anywhere in the list of treasure parcels, but maybe I'm not squinting hard enough.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I totally agree with all these high points, but like I've said before, I think Rituals are a stupendous idea that fails a bit in execution.</p><p></p><p>We need a different way to "pay" for rituals, one that is assumed in the system. </p><p></p><p>We need rituals divided more strongly into flavorful effects, and spread out amongst more classes. The upcoming "Martial Practices" is probably a really good use of this idea, judging from the bit in the character builder. Segregating rituals by power source (which is almost done with rituals depending on trained skills right now) is another good element. They need to take this farther, and make the rituals stronger. This might not even be a problem in the next few years. Rituals need to be more strongly tied to character archetype.</p><p></p><p>Rituals need to have an affect on the game. This is a philosophical change more than anything. 4e's main way of doing anything is via encounters (mostly combat encounters) and rituals are inherently isolated from encounters, so you don't ever need to use a ritual for anything, so anything you invest in a ritual is pointless unless your DM makes a special exception just for you. This is a deep divide that affects the structure of the game, the number of assumed combats, the nature of XP, even the powers system itself. </p><p></p><p>I like rituals. I just never get to use them in my games as a player, because the DM doesn't make a special exception for them, or often as a DM, because by RAW, they're not worth the effort it takes to get them.</p><p></p><p>I banished all GP costs to use a ritual in my game, and instantly saw an uptick in use. Not a big uptick, but still. I personally want to encourage their use, because I do like the way they make you feel like an actual well-rounded character who can do things other than blow up goblins, who can help, in a uniquely archetypal way, in situations other than combat. I love that you don't have to allocate combat resources to them anymore, but I still want them to be important to characters accomplishing their goals.</p><p></p><p>By RAW, they're not. </p><p></p><p>I think in my mind, Rituals and Skill Challenges might be combined into one big system that is then divided into types of conflicts the PC's might overcome that don't involve combat, but I'm still early in my thinking on that. I think the strengths of the Ritual system will help offset the problems with the Skill Challenge system, and vice-versa.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 5088746, member: 2067"] Well, it does, since the reason you don't hate rituals is because you have made them better than they are written to be. Which is great, but that's a solution for you, at your table, with your specific group. It doesn't mean that rituals don't deserve the hate. Perhaps if the other millions of people playing D&D hadn't thought of or implemented your specific fixes, they hate the rituals, because they are still expensive, bland, and overly specific. Because they're not at your table, haven't thought of your solutions, and so, they still have the problems that your group has fixed. Totally right, and great for you, but if you want an answer to the question, perhaps this is it: people have ritual hate because not everyone has a super DM who bends the rules to make rituals useful for people who like rituals. Which is a problem. Having fun shouldn't require an excellent DM. If you can't get a good result without good DM improvisation, then the thing itself is borked. I don't see "ritual components" anywhere in the list of treasure parcels, but maybe I'm not squinting hard enough. I totally agree with all these high points, but like I've said before, I think Rituals are a stupendous idea that fails a bit in execution. We need a different way to "pay" for rituals, one that is assumed in the system. We need rituals divided more strongly into flavorful effects, and spread out amongst more classes. The upcoming "Martial Practices" is probably a really good use of this idea, judging from the bit in the character builder. Segregating rituals by power source (which is almost done with rituals depending on trained skills right now) is another good element. They need to take this farther, and make the rituals stronger. This might not even be a problem in the next few years. Rituals need to be more strongly tied to character archetype. Rituals need to have an affect on the game. This is a philosophical change more than anything. 4e's main way of doing anything is via encounters (mostly combat encounters) and rituals are inherently isolated from encounters, so you don't ever need to use a ritual for anything, so anything you invest in a ritual is pointless unless your DM makes a special exception just for you. This is a deep divide that affects the structure of the game, the number of assumed combats, the nature of XP, even the powers system itself. I like rituals. I just never get to use them in my games as a player, because the DM doesn't make a special exception for them, or often as a DM, because by RAW, they're not worth the effort it takes to get them. I banished all GP costs to use a ritual in my game, and instantly saw an uptick in use. Not a big uptick, but still. I personally want to encourage their use, because I do like the way they make you feel like an actual well-rounded character who can do things other than blow up goblins, who can help, in a uniquely archetypal way, in situations other than combat. I love that you don't have to allocate combat resources to them anymore, but I still want them to be important to characters accomplishing their goals. By RAW, they're not. I think in my mind, Rituals and Skill Challenges might be combined into one big system that is then divided into types of conflicts the PC's might overcome that don't involve combat, but I'm still early in my thinking on that. I think the strengths of the Ritual system will help offset the problems with the Skill Challenge system, and vice-versa. [/QUOTE]
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