Why all the ritual hate?

[Turtlejay]

I've seen this sentiment expressed kind of a lot here in the Main forum, and a bit in the 4e rules forum.

Rituals Suck.

I don't really follow. I do see that the time factor limits usage, but the other complaints I'd need some convincing on:

1 - They cost too much.

2 - They are bland.

3 - They don't do enough.

My experiences have been different with these. While I did spend my only time as a wizard in 4e playing in a low magic campaign, and therefore only cast a few rituals, in my current campaign, and the one prior to that, I have seen them used in creative and flavorful ways. My rebuttal is then:

1 - The cost is irrelevent if your DM is paying attention. If you tend to use rituals then the DM should seed the treasure and rewards with different ritual components, and allow you to collect your own while adventuring. It doesn't *have* to come from your own pocket.

2 - Rituals, like everything else in the game, run in imagination power. Last session our Ritualist cast a ritual to determine the cause of a wagon crash. He and the DM tag-teamed a description whereby the ritual worked by him traveling across dimentions to view the 'echo' of the crash in real time, as a shadow. The DM's descriptions of the event were vivid, and the time/money was well spent

3 - The ritual is only as good as the person behind it. Speak with Dead is only useful if you ask the right questions. Tell my friend that Tenser's Floating Disc is not useful, and he will tell you about the first time we fought a dragon. He had the ritual up, and when he fell off the boat, the disc was the only thing that saved him. Later, he would have drowned and been left behind if he hadn't climbed into his floating disc. I have dozens of such experiences, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

The one house-rule that I like is changing the number of minutes required to a number of rounds. What does ENWorld thing about rituals? Where is the love?

Jay

 

[weem]

I'm fine with Rituals, I just want to bring them into combat in a way that doesn't wreck anything else.

We have an awesome thread going right now in the 4e houserule section where we're tweaking various suggestions to get Rituals worked into combat and it's come along nicely. You should check it out!

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...imple-house-rule-ritual-casting-thoughts.html

 

[I'm A Banana]

1 - The cost is irrelevent if your DM is paying attention. If you tend to use rituals then the DM should seed the treasure and rewards with different ritual components, and allow you to collect your own while adventuring. It doesn't *have* to come from your own pocket.

A good DM can solve all problems.

That doesn't make them not problems. That just makes a DM who can solve them a good DM.

2 - Rituals, like everything else in the game, run in imagination power. Last session our Ritualist cast a ritual to determine the cause of a wagon crash. He and the DM tag-teamed a description whereby the ritual worked by him traveling across dimentions to view the 'echo' of the crash in real time, as a shadow. The DM's descriptions of the event were vivid, and the time/money was well spent

A good DM can solve all problems.

That doesn't make them not problems. That just makes a DM who can solve them a good DM.

3 - The ritual is only as good as the person behind it. Speak with Dead is only useful if you ask the right questions. Tell my friend that Tenser's Floating Disc is not useful, and he will tell you about the first time we fought a dragon. He had the ritual up, and when he fell off the boat, the disc was the only thing that saved him. Later, he would have drowned and been left behind if he hadn't climbed into his floating disc. I have dozens of such experiences, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

A good DM can solve all problems.

That doesn't make them not problems. That just makes a DM who can solve them a good DM.

I can say it a fourth time, if you'd like.

 

[Leatherhead]

Just look at the knock ritual.

10 minute casting time, costs 35 gold and a healing surge, for something that can be done for free in about 6 seconds by a skill.

But anyway, you are twisting the rules in the rituals favor. They are not supposed to be free, if they were they would have their price listed as such. And that disk is only supposed to float over the ground.

Yeah if you change the rules they are ok, but isn't that what everyone is saying anyway?

 

[Turtlejay]

Uh, point taken Kamikaze Midget? It'd be nice if you contributed something though, since calling out my specific examples doesn't really touch on the point of the discussion...

The Knock ritual is a good example of a ritual I would not take. If you have someone that can open locks, don't waste time and money on the ritual. Likewise if you have someone that can knock down doors/bust open chests.

And the Floating Disk? Should a *floating* disk, sink? And in all seriousness, that was just a good example of a DM saying yes. Perhaps my examples were all colored by that, but what can I say? I have had extraordinary luck with super DMs!

Jay

PS - I promise I won't babysit this thread. . .I promise. . .

 

[fba827]

i (personally) don't really have a problem with rituals.

I like that they can not be cast midbattle, it helps foster that sense of "oooh, this is fancy magic" and lots of the rituals are interesting.

However, _some_ rituals are boring or not cost effective though or get so mired trying to "stop abuse" in their wording that they end up being so specialized and corner-case that they don't seem practical to spend money to master when you could use that money for something more general but equally powerful.

Also, if you're in a low magic game or don't have easy access to components then yeah, it does make them relatively more costly than in other games.

But over all i like the concept and i like the fact that it helps separate out in-combat vs. out of combat stuff (compared to earlier editions where spellcaster's players would be berated by other players if they chose 'utility' type spells rather than fireball/etc)

(just my rambles on the topic).

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I like rituals, a lot. I think the thinking behind them was excellent and I think they're potentially a really great part of 4e.

What I DON'T like is that in all the published adventures I've read (H1 - H3, P1 - P3, Scales of War) they're barely mentioned. To me, it feels like I have no real idea how to use them, when, what kind of things they're useful for, anything. I have no examples to work off, and no DDI articles helping me use them. They feel very under-loved.

 

[Chris Knapp]

I think rituals are great, but no one used them until I started giving out ritual components as part of treasure. The players suddenly thought, "Well, I've got 200gp worth of alchemical reagents, might as well try 'em out."

 

[S'mon]

I very much like them as they are. They reduce the super-high-magic feel of 3e (and to a large extent prior editions) down to something that finally fits my world. Players only use them when necessary, eg to Raise a dead PC, and NPCs only use them when necessary, ie when plot-useful. They solve a huge problem with prior editions in that I can now have an NPC "high priestess" or "great wizard" with great magical ability but no combat power.

 

[Ourph]

I don't see the Knock ritual as being any worse than wasting a daily spell slot on Knock as a spell in earlier editions. At least as a ritual it doesn't come at the cost of a combat or other utility spell. If you're going to have it as a backup for when the skill characters can't open a door, having it as a ritual certainly seems like the best resource pool to draw it from.