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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tyrlaan" data-source="post: 5091826" data-attributes="member: 20998">So the argument is that rituals are bunk because of magician's force? Just like you can probably see different ways to get info that don't include rituals, you can probably see different ways to get info that does include rituals. But you can make this exact same argument about skills. It's really up to the DM how much mileage you get out of Diplomacy, Streetwise, etc. Because I can't raise the dead with my heal skill. Though, for what it's worth I think the rituals that fell under the purview of wizards in prior editions are getting the attention because they make for more solid examples of niche crushing.Sure, but 4e doesn't have non-combat roles. I understand you've fleshed out some ideas in this area, but that's not part of RAW. 4e RAW handles non-combat more or less by providing everyone access to everything. Sure each class and race have some notable advantages here and there, there's really nothing one player can do that another one can't (should you be willing to spend some feats or whatnot). Well, for the first part, there's not much of a puzzle to solve if a bunch of goblins are charging at you and the DM says "roll initiative." I don't think you have a valid analogy here, unless we get into interesting territory, such as a DM who is throwing some intrigue at the party and the goblins might not be a threat, but instead have some information (or some other idea that makes the combat something other than a combat).  For the second part, if and when 4e has clearly defined non-combat roles, then perhaps what you've outlined would work nicely. Striker in combat => Agree, but you're posing the question to favor your argument. The striker is a clearly delineated role amongst 4 that is designed to function as part of a team. There should be no expectation that it can function in a vacuum and I'd be pretty surprised if any players anywhere handled combat scenarios by sitting back and letting the striker do it all by his or her self.Magic out of combat => Disagree. If I can cast a ritual to float everyone across a chasm, guess what the rest of the party is doing? Nothing. It didn't take anyone any work other than the ritual caster. Okay, maybe some aid another checks. With the correct ritual at hand, everyone else is very much doing nothing. Short of complicating the rules for rituals so they force group involvement, this isn't about to change. 4e acknowledges this, and the solution it provides is time and cost for using rituals. The less it costs and the less time it takes to use a ritual, the more likely it is that scenarios will exist where one person is doing everything and the rest of the party is sitting on their hands. Incidentally, perhaps this analogy would serve as a better method of debating all this instead of specific in-game scenarios or specific rituals.Person A goes from City X to City Y. Person A takes a plane, which costs 50 smackeroos and takes 5 days.Person B goes from City X to City Y. Person B takes a train, which costs 150 smackeroos and takes 7 days. However, its a much safer trip.The faster and cheaper the train becomes, the less and less arguments can be made to take a plane. On the flip side, if the train is just expensive enough but provides just enough benefit, it can always be a viable option without making the plane obsolete.</blockquote>

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