Why an Assassins hand book?

[ForceUser]

Re: Re: Pet Peeve

I don't need a book about Romanian cooking, so I didn't buy that either. No one's forcing you to buy anything. Besides, this is really about what people want, not need.

On the other hand, I can see your frustration. If a good d20 publisher is creating lots of products that you don't want, then they're not spending time writing what you do want. What is it you're looking for?

Point. And I suppose it is the domain of the independant d20 publisher to tackle those niche books that appeal to smaller portions of the community. And that's a terrific thing! Sight unseen, this particular book seems superfluous to me, is all.

I suppose I could list what I'm looking for, but in truth that fluctuates as time goes on. For instance, I'm running an OA game set in mythic Vietnam right now, so I would kill for a Vietnamese Handbook! Unfortunately, such a thing probably appeals to about 0.02% of the d20 community. I'd wager that an assassin's book appeals to a larger slice, but as far as I'm concerned, what's in the DMG concerning assassins is enough for me since evil characters are strictly NPCs in my games.

Honestly, I tend to shy away from non-WotC products. Many of them seem to be not as rigorously playtested as "official" D&D books (how could they be?), and I've no need for products such as an entire book on orcs or sahuagin. The core books and their direct descendants (splatbooks, Manual of the Planes, Oriental Adventures, etc) are more than enough for me to plan with as DM, and as a DM I'm looking forward to products such as Monster Manual II, Book of Vile Darkness, and Fiend Folio. However, I admit I'm awaiting several d20 books as well:

-Romance of the Five Planets
-Fields of Blood
-Book of Hallowed Might (though in my mind, anything d20 by Monte Cook is golden)

I've guess I've said a lot without saying much. If you enjoy products such as this assassin book, that's great; I just tend to prefer products with a broader focus, like those I mentioned above. I also like products that expand on things that were only briefly touched on in the core books, such as undersea adventuring (FFG's Seafarer's Handbook) and d20 mass combat (Fields of Blood, hopefully). Finally, any product that is generic enough to drop into my homebrew campaign and cool enough to "wow" me will get a fair shake from me (such as FFG's Traps & Treachery).

As a player, I don't need a lot of d20 books to help me come up with a character concept. The Quentessential series of books for instance, while neat, will not get my money. I have plenty of inspiration for character concepts, and they remind me too much of the 2E Complete Handbooks, which I'd much rather forget forever. Also, non-WotC feats, spells, and prestige classes are a real pain to get past the DMs I play under. When in doubt, they stick to the core rules. And they doubt the balance of non-WotC products. Really, my whole circle of friends does. It's much easier to just stick to core rules and not deal with it at all.

 

[sword-dancer]

Personally, I prefer to keep Assassins in the NPC only realm becouse what is so heroic or positive about playing a cold blooded killer?


Scott

What is wrong with an cold blooded killer of evil?
In Midgard the assassin is a PC-Class.

One my favorite characters of all time that I played was an assassin who only took on targets that he deemed "deservining"... people who had commited great crimes but managed to buy their way out of trouble, tyranical dictators, etc.

Have you ever played Midgard?

No new weapons, no gods, no monsters, no guild rules, few PrCs... Lots of poisons, lots of DM options, cool core class.

BTW, Swashbuckling Adventure has an assassin core class and lots of PrCs for 'em.

New Weapons for what?
Gods? For what should a class book include gods, thats for the CS, PG and such?
Guild rules maybe useful but
What is with orders, solos, special forces commando type, Assassin hunters...

 

[Gargoyle]

Re: Re: Re: Pet Peeve

Honestly, I tend to shy away from non-WotC products. Many of them seem to be not as rigorously playtested as "official" D&D books (how could they be?),

Funny you should say that. During the D&D Q&A seminar, after a question regarding fast sneak, David Noonan sheepishly admitted that he was the one who wrote the Ninja of the Crescent Moon in The Sword and Fist. Quote "I don't know what I was thinking." Anyone who bought the first printing of that book knows there was not a lot of playtesting done, if any. The average gamer spotted multiple large problems within minutes of opening the cover. (All that being said, I love the erratted Sword and Fist and use it all the time.)

To answer the question of "how could they be?" my response is really the opposing question "Why couldn't they?" Some d20 companies do playtest more rigorously and more intelligently than WOTC. The problem is figuring out which ones.

However, I admit I'm awaiting several d20 books as well:

-Romance of the Five Planets
-Fields of Blood
-Book of Hallowed Might (though in my mind, anything d20 by Monte Cook is golden)

Waiting for a couple of these myself, and I agree that Monte writes good stuff. But I still only use about a quarter of what he writes. You're absolutely right about most of the material simply not fitting into a particular campaign.

As a player, I don't need a lot of d20 books to help me come up with a character concept. The Quentessential series of books for instance, while neat, will not get my money. I have plenty of inspiration for character concepts, and they remind me too much of the 2E Complete Handbooks, which I'd much rather forget forever. Also, non-WotC feats, spells, and prestige classes are a real pain to get past the DMs I play under. When in doubt, they stick to the core rules. And they doubt the balance of non-WotC products. Really, my whole circle of friends does. It's much easier to just stick to core rules and not deal with it at all.

Can't really disagree with that point of view. I'm very critical of letting any new rules into my game, and don't have much of a problem coming up with character concepts or campaign material either. I do allow almost anything that seems ok, if the players really want to see it , but sometimes I end up redesigning it, and that's no fun for anyone. As a designer, I like tinkering with rules, but as a DM, I just want the darn things to work seamlessly. I can understand just going with official material, and just a few trusted d20 companies.

All this is kind of frustrating to the consumer, but that's the price paid for more choices. We've got to buy the stuff that's good and resist the urge to buy the crap (or the things that we really won't use). That way the market will decide.

Another thing you can do is post a request for a Vietnam style campaign setting or rulebook on the d20 publisher's board. There might be some crazy-like-a-fox d20 publisher who's been dying to do one, but doesn't realize there is a market. The cool thing about the d20 market is that it's growing. A very thin slice of the d20 pie is getting bigger every day because the whole pie is getting bigger. Nobody really knows what their market share is yet, or how deep it will go.

 

[Pramas]

Allow to respond to several posts at once.

1) As for why we did this class, the answer is pretty simple: to bring a core assassin class back into the game. One of the design goals of 3E was to include every class you may have played in any edition of the game. The assassin was there, but not as the core class it was in 1E. And generally, the Master Class series is about creating new core classes with support material of various types.

2) Over half the book is a presentation of two assassin societies, the Vultur and Sirat. They can be dropped into any campaign world and can be used by GMs or players. I bring this up because little mention of them has been made and they are an important part of "what you get." This does mean there is less crunchy material than there was in the Shaman's Handbook, but we thought the groups were too cool to cut down in size.

3) In both Secret College of Necromancy and the Assassin's Handbook, Wolf Baur did the mechanics stuff and Zeb Cook did the organizations. FYI.

4) Yes, the classes in SCoN are more powerful than the PH classes. The design conceit of that book was "let's create some great villains." As we say in the book itself, it really is a GMs' book and yes, we recognize that it's not for everyone. I'm not sure if we'll do something like that again (sort depends on the feedback we get; at least I know where Psion stands!).

5) Psion, I gave Joe a review copy of Book of the Righteous at GenCon. I'm afraid the rest of the review copies won't go out for several weeks, since we sold out of the advanced shipment we received for GenCon. The book looks terrific and the GenCon response was phenomenal.

 

[JoeGKushner]

New Weapons for what?
Gods? For what should a class book include gods, thats for the CS, PG and such?
Guild rules maybe useful but
What is with orders, solos, special forces commando type, Assassin hunters...

New weapons for what? Well, I think that the some exotic weapons would be in the right place here. Some more means of crafting hollow or semi-hollow weapons to hold poison.

A class book should include gods if only to touch on them and provide some roots since half the book is devoted to The Striaght Path, a religious way of life, for example. I would've loved to seen some god of murder like Khaine from Warhammer FRPG.

Guild Rules... mmm...tasty...

BTW Chris, my review should be up at OgreCave shortly for Assassin's. Still working on BoTR. Huge book. I've already had to fend off several waves of, dare I say it, assassins...

 

[JoeGKushner]

How'd you score the BOTR and TAHB already? Did you scam Nichole into giving you a copy at the con? Or did you actually put cash on the barrel-head?

Nichole was very friendly and assured me that if I could get the reivews done in a timely matter that we'd be even. Well, three posted, another done, and one to go.

I paid out a lot for Privateer miniatures. I'm not a wargamer, but I love minis...

I've going through BoTR now and it's very cool. It reminds me of all the good stuff in Primal Order and Knights were it wasn't just about how powerful the god was. The best of the three 2nd ed books on gods for FR.

 

[sword-dancer]

...

New weapons for what? Well, I think that the some exotic weapons would be in the right place here. Some more means of crafting hollow or semi-hollow weapons to hold poison.

Oh, No, not this stupid Mengbillar!

A class book should include gods if only to touch on them and provide some roots since half the book is devoted to The Striaght Path, a religious way of life, for example.

The you had a point, a good point!

 

[Psion]

JoeGKushner wrote:
I've going through BoTR now and it's very cool. It reminds me of all the good stuff in Primal Order and Knights were it wasn't just about how powerful the god was. The best of the three 2nd ed books on gods for FR.

Sounds like a very good book, what DDG should have been IMNSHO!