Why are certain monsters at certain tiers?

[fba827]

As others have said, it's something you can adjust if you feel is right for your campaign.

I think they did it to
1) keep pacing so that the 'default' has different types of monsters at different ranges
2) to keep somethings a bit more iconic in power level (i.e think way back how dragons were never low level so they had more fear and majesty about them, no one wants to cross one! versus a skeleton, every 1st level adventurerer runs across them, so they don't have as much fear. with a vampire, they probably want it to be in the mid range where they aren't that common but still a manageable threat
3) powers... some monster powers are just kept at certain levels. for instance, i don't think anything lower than a level 7 monster will ever stun. vampires have a charm effect so there is probably a minimum that that sort of thing is considered 'ok'
4) .. eh, there is more but i'm too tired now to keep typing.


but all this goes back to the original point -- if you want to shake up the frequency and power of various monsters for your game, by all means. go for it (i do it all the time). it keeps people on their toes when it's not always what they expect.

 

[Jack99]

The obvious answer to your question is obviously that they had to make it something, (heroic/paragon/epic) and they fit that the paragon tier was the best fit - for the majority of vampires. This does not mean a vampire can't be of another level. Go nuts deleveling!

By the way, I wouldn't make the vampire a solo. Make him an elite and give him allies -- bodyguards, or spectral hounds, or swarms of shadow bats, or something. There are too many annoying things PCs can do against solos for them to really work without a lot of tweaking.

A regenerating solo monster that dominates at level 4? I think a wiser course would indeed be to make him an elite, just as RW said (also for the reasons he mentioned).

Wow.. I just agreed with RW. There must be at least a little bit cold in Hell today

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think the question is more why does the template require 11th level. I think the reason might be the number of powers gained (without looking at it). Basically, higher level monsters have and need more powers per encounter, since the PCs have more, too.

I suppose the best thing to do here is to either remove some powers or to adjust their damage down. If the damage indicates a limited damage expression, pick a normal damage expression instead for some powers.

 

[AllisterH]

I could've sworn I read either a preview or an editorial where they wanted say "Underdark" is a paragon level locale and thus, monsters found in the Underdark primarily would be at least 11th level.

 

[Dykstrav]

Perhaps a bit more background and my reasoning for wanting to use a vampire would be insightful.

The idea of using a vampire is to place a long-term, but comparatively "minor" villain into the campaign for my thinking players. The ones who enjoy mysteries, investigations, and puzzle-solving. Basically, this vampire hides in the crypts beneath a lonely monastery on the edges of civilization. She gets by feeding on the sick and wounded tended in the hospice and is extremely careful to avoid drinking to deeply from any one person to avoid arousing suspicion (she never uses her fangs on such victims, for example). Every once in a while, however, she thirsts for more substantial prey. That's where the PCs come in.

When the characters meet her in the local watering hole, she's a pale redhead dressed as one of the monastery's sisters and nursing a goblet of wine by herself. She stands out because she's the classiest dame in the joint and she's quick to attach herself to the characters as an admirer with insinuations of romantic interest. If she can manage to convince one of the characters to "escort her to the monastery," just to make sure she gets home safely... That PC wakes up weak and listless the next day with no memory of what happened after leaving the town's pallisade. I haven't decided the precise game effects yet (perhaps reducing healing surges), but the PC will definitely know something is up.

Characters that visit the Monastery will discover that most of the Sisters have heard of "Sister Angela," but can't seem to remember many details or specifics about her. They can't identify which cell is hers or when she comes to devotions or attends meals. Astute PCs may notice the frescoes and paintings in the monastery contain an image of a pale redhead tending the sick and wounded after battles. The Sisters reveal that it is a common image of their angel of death, the psychopomp that appears to the dying and comforts them during their transition to the next world. None of the Sisters seem to think that any of this is strange. (I admit, it may be a bit of DM fiat to extrapolate the dominating gaze power into such a mental fugue and loss of memory, but I think it works).

If the characters find "Sister Angela's" crypt beneath the monastery, she fights until bloodied, then assumes mist form to escape (that's why she's a solo, she needs the hit points to take a few rounds of hits, although I'll consider making her an elite instead). She has several bolt-holes scattered throughout the countryside and even a few in town for such occasions. She plans to lay low until the PCs leave town (for years, if necessary) before returning to her lair.

Over the course of the campaign, I intend this vampire to be a recurring, but comparatively minor villain. She might harass the characters indirectly by shadowing their movements and poisoning their food and water supplies. She might try to turn people against them by telling townsfolk that the characters abused her, raped her, killed her parents or whatever and using her powers to cement the idea in their minds. By making her an indirect, from-the-shadows type of villain, she could harass the characters over the course of several levels and make their lives very unpleasant.

Even if you're planning to take a game to 30, you probably can figure out your pacing on your own well enough that you don't have to partition critters out the way they did. If you're not planning to go all the way to 30, there's definitely no reason to stint yourself on your favorite critters.

This is basically true. I'm only playing heroic tier for now. We tried playing paragon tier and the game ground to a halt--the monster and PCs had too many hit points and there were too many options for the PCs, so each round took several minutes as the players deliberated, used immediate interrupts, looked up a finer point of a rule or condition, et cetera. We've discovered that we enjoy heroic tier far more and are therefore mostly sticking to that tier of play.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Since you want her to retreat, giving her some "Minions" (not necessarily in the rules sens), Elite Status and a higher level might help a lot - it protects her better from action denying abilities. Vampires might have Bats, Wolves or Vampire Spawn at their aid...

 

[hexgrid]

There's a 6th level solo vampire in the compendium (from the FR adventure, I think,) so even the designers feel free to disregard the template's level requirement.

 

[BlightCrawler]

If its a long term villain, I don't see the problem with keeping her at 11th. Have her retreat and plan on a finale occuring anywhere between level 6 and 12 (or higher, you can always increase her level if necessary). I threw a level 11 black dragon at my 4th level party. Of course before it came to combat, it turned into a skill challenge to get the hell away, but still. Just because a creature is introduced doesn't mean it has to go into combat.

You can also consider reskinning other monsters, and swap some of the vampire related powers for flavor, if you want her to be more active. Then keep upgrading until the final showdown with the real deal. Or, if you want that showdown to occur before they'd be the right level, just go with the reskin. If you call it a vampire, describe it like a vampire, and describe it's use of powers that fit a vampire, then it's a vampire.

Eitherway, I wouldn't apply it to something lower than 11th. The additional powers and higher level status effects doesn't just make the battle harder than you might expect (which is probably fine from the PoV of the players) but doesn't reward the XP for that increased difficulty.

 

[Umbran]

I think it is more that you don't need the template's powers to make something a challenge for 4th level characters.

And, sort of thematically, if this level 6 critter went around calling itself a "vampire lord", it'd get laughed at. The basic level 8 Orc Chieftan would stomp on it without spilling its beer, right? If you can't cow an orc, you aren't "lord" of much of anything.

 

[filthgrinder]

There's a 6th level solo vampire in the compendium (from the FR adventure, I think,) so even the designers feel free to disregard the template's level requirement.

Beat me to it! There is indeed, and it is from the Scepter Tower of Spellguard. My players toasted him rather easily though, but were really creeped out by the encounter. I also allowed the person who suffered the blood drain ability to take the Dhamphyer feat when she leveled.

The levels are just suggestions, so adjust accordingly. The idea is that the heroic tier are save the town/city/region from evil and then you move on to greater villians and more expansive locales and quests. Plus you also need to think that the heroic tier consists of the adventurer's making a name for themselves and when they hit Paragon, they have some rep and legend behind themselves as well. A vampire lord at 11 is a good place for him. He is a good BBG for the entire heroic tier, and defeating him is a good way to cap off that storyline and then go into "season 2" in paragon.