why are "create undead" and "control undead" so awful?

[Shin Okada]

Think like this. Create Undead and Create Greater Undead are NOT the higher-level version of Animate Dead spell. The purpose is completely different.

Animate Dead create mindless undead monsters, though very powerful, can understand and continue only very simple commands. So, it is good to create your bodyguard or your castle's guard.

On the other hand, Create Undead and Create Greater Undead creates monsters which think by themselves. And they are NOT UNDER YOUR CONTROL. So, those spells are, basically, not for making your mindless minion soldiers. Those spells are either used for releasing menace and chaos to the world, or to create trustworthy lieutenant from the dead body of previously royal person.

Or, to create your own friend. The eternal life of an undead could be boring and lonely.

 

[evilbob]

True: this spell makes some sense if you think about it in the pure "evil" respect of "you are bringing more evil into the world - forever." Creating an evil thing that will not die on its own and can create more of itself by killing is certainly horrid and in some ways powerful; it's also a good way to explain why undead exist in the first place!

I'm also thinking these spells might warrant house-ruled versions that are lower level and have the caveat that the undead you create cannot propagate.

 

[irdeggman]

I'm also thinking these spells might warrant house-ruled versions that are lower level and have the caveat that the undead you create cannot propagate.

Or introduce them as the result of "spell research", no need for a house-rule change since you are in essence creating "new" spells. Once introduced as a result of spell research they can pop up in spell books and scrolls for others to "learn".

 

[Storme]

The limitation of these two spells as compared to Animate Dead are duration.

Create Undead gives you NO control over the undead you create and it will attack you. I find the spell pretty useless myself, and it's high on my "Don't Bother" List. Control and Command Undead controls undead you encounter or create for a limited duration.

Animate Dead is a poor man's simulacrum. These are under your control forever unless you go over your limit of 4HD per level (or 40 HD for a level 10). Ghoul Gauntlet creates Ghouls permanently under your control and so its much better for the most part.

Necromancers are wimps. If you can afford the xp loss, go with Simulacrums. I like to make simulacrums of party members I meet and alter their appearance, and make them servants in my castle. Best sims are dragons (metal dragons are the best since they can change self and turn into a hawk to pose as your familiar, and sit on your shoulder while you enter the inn...oh look...that guy has a 15 HD, fire breathing, spell slinging, SR, DR, and frightful presnes having...owl!!!), and outsiders (who's spell-like abilities are not HD based). Trouble is getting a sample from a Pit Fiend, Balor or an Ancient Gold Dragon...cough. Best sim, bar none, is an ethereal doppleganger! Have him turn into a mosquito (the most stealthful beings in the universe) and sit on the back of the party's arch nemesis over night. Hehehe. Mwaaahahaha!

Oh, and get a Mirror of Life Trapping to Store your undead and simulacrums in!

"CELL NUMBER 9! GO GET EM!"

 

[eamon]

I don't see a problem with the spells. They don't do what you want them too; so a new spell via spell research is probably a good idea. However, creating intelligent undead (which in turn can create more) is potentially vastly more powerful than merely animating a skeleton. Also; don't forget that to make a powerful skeleton, you need a high-HD source body, which isn't trivially available. You just need a body for create undead.

Control undead is vastly better simply because of it's higher level, it's success regardless of opposed charisma checks and it's more powerful effect. Sure, it's not the same as command undead, but it's not bad. The fact that you can control multiple undead with one casting is also potentially a "free" quicken... You could for instance control a high-level lich and his vampire, and have them sit around until command undead works; whereas vice-versa is not possible.

The spells are fine as is.

If you want an improved "animate dead" then I suggest reviewing the various MM's to select more powerful mindless (or at the very least, stupid and not self-creating undead) undead and make a spell which requires a powerful body, but creates powerful minions. Create Undead is something else.