Why are paladins so dumb?

[The Souljourner]

Has anyone else noticed that the average intelligence of D&D Paladins is like 8? Strength for attacking, Con for hitpoints, Dex for AC (granted you really only need 12, since every paladin worth his salt has platemail), Wisdom for casting spells, and Charisma for saving throws, turning, and lay on hands. There's just no room left for a decent intelligence score. The last 3 paladins I've seen (one of which I played) had intelligence 6, 7, and 9. Boy, that last one sure was sharp. Seriously though... the requirement that a paladin have 5 good stats is really rough.

Anyway, my true purpose for being here today is to ask you folks what you think of single class paladins. If possible, personal experience in 3rd edition is preferred, but I never mind hearing speculation. I play in fairly combat heavy campaigns in groups of about 6 or 7 PCs. I'm thinking of taking Cavalier later on, but haven't exactly decided yet. I'm definitely being a halfling specialized in mounted combat.

-The Souljourner

 

[Jeremy]

I love paladins, their saves really keep them alive when many other classes have already faltered. The two I've played were both role playing engines. A great deal of entertaining things happened to them/because of them.

I favor highly charismatic paladins over strong ones. And I definately agree with the mounted combat path, if one of your main abilities is a bonded mount, might as well learn spirited charge.

With a charismatic paladin on a mount with divine might and a smite evil, you can power attack everything and still be at a bonus to hit because of the charisma bonus from smite and divine might. And the first time you defibrulate someone with 140 points of healing because your charisma is so high.... Let's just say it's a good feeling.

Never did get to do a full lay on hands on an undead though... Cleric kept blasting them out of existance before I could do it. Oh well, one of these days he's going to shake a lich's hand and give a wonderful impression of a hand buzzer.

 

[bret]

I'm in a rather high power campaign, but I gave my Paladin a better Int than Dex. This is a rather high power campaign, with a smaller point buy I would go the 'all bonus stats' route and figure out who to maximize my total bonus across all the attributes.

Personally, I think the Paladin works best with multiple good scores rather than one super score. Personally, I would rather play one with all attributes in the 10-14 range than one with a attribute penalty.

I honestly don't know what I would do for Paladin attributes using the Standard Array. How does the Iconic arrange them?

 

[Artoomis]

I included a full stat block for Gibley, an 11th (almost 12th) level paladin. I admit he has the advantage of starting at 11th level with book value, since he was a replacement character and that's what we agreed to when we replaced out characters.

edit: He was built with 32 points. He's got lots of stat boosts from items.

Sorry - no stat block for his mount.

A few things to directly answer your questions:

1. A flying mount is practically a must. You could get that several ways - celestial armor for barding works well. Boots would be even better, because they let you split up the flying.

2. His mount is a celestial riding dog - a good choice, but here's a few tips.

First, argue for skill points and feats as a Magical Beast (a legitimate request, but it could be ruled either way).

Second, use the feat(s) you get to boost his saves, you'll need it.

Third, argue for stats made up with the same number of points used for characters, with appropriate racial adjustments for the riding dog "race." They are: +4 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, -8 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha; at least that's where PCGen has them.

Fourth, use Shield Other to enhance the mount's survival, as your opponents might target the mount to eliminate you as a threat.

Fifth: Argue for the Natural Armor class to be in addition to the mount's Natural AC. This could be viewed either way.

(Reminder: Choosing a celestial riding dog means it will lag behind one paladin level on the paladin's mount table).

3. He's a blast to play, with the biggest limiting factors being:

a. He's not very effective except for when he can use his Ride-By attack - then he's downright deadly.

b. He tends to get slightly seperated from the party due to charging - this makes him vulnerable to being singled out.

4. On the other hand, he can charge even when underground since he and his mount together are only medium-sized.

5. Single-classed is great. I'd take a prestige class in a heartbeat if there was one that let the mount continue advancing, but no such class exists, at least not published in a d20 book. I'd willingly trade spell progression for full concentration on mounted combat.

6. Don't even think about the leadership feat - equipping your mount will cost about as much as equipping a cohort - you won't be able to afford both.

Have fun!!!

And now for a look at my character; Gibley:

Gibley, M Halfling (Lightfoot) Paladin11 CR 11; Size:S
Type Humanoid; HD (11d10)+11; hp 94; Init +0 (+0 Dex, +0 Misc);
Spd Walk 15'; AC 20 (flatfooted 19, touch 12),
Dagger +15/+10/+5 0'/P (1d4+3 19-20/x2 Neither T )
or Dagger (Thrown) +13/+8/+3 10'/P (1d4+3 19-20/x2 Neither T )
or *Lance (Light) +2 +17/+12/+7 0'/P (1d6+5 20/x3 Neither S (Lance +2 (Light)))
or Sword (Short) +15/+10/+5 0'/P (1d6+3 19-20/x2 Neither S )
or ;
SA: Detect Evil (60', quarter circle), Divine Grace (Cha bonus add to saves), Lay on Hands (Cha bonus x lvl per day), Divine Health (Immune to Disease), Smite Evil (1/day Atk +Cha and Dam +Lvl), Aura of Courage (Immune to Fear, Allies w/in 10' get +4 save bonus),Remove Disease 1/week,Turn Undead 8/day, Special Mount, Remove Disease 3/week,+2 morale bonus vs fear;
Vision: Normal AL: LG;

Sv: Fort +16, Ref +11, Will +14;
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 20

Skills and Feats: Climb +4, Diplomacy +14, Heal +14, Hide +3, Jump +4, Knowledge (Religion) +7, Listen +5, Move Silently +1, Ride +14, Speak Language +1; Armor Proficiency(Heavy),Armor Proficiency (Light),Armor Proficiency (Medium),Martial Weapon Proficiency,Mounted Combat,Power Attack,Ride-By Attack,Shield Proficiency,Simple Weapon Proficiency,Spirited Charge

Possessions: 1.0 Amulet of Health +2, 1.0 Arrows (20), 1.0 Buckler +2 (Small), 2.0 Chalk (1 piece), 1.0 Cloak of Charisma +2, 55.0 Coin (Copper), 1930.0 Coin (Gold), 40.0 Coin (Platinum), 121.0 Coin (Silver), 1.0 Dagger, 1.0 Gauntlets of Ogre Power, 1.0 Goggles of Night, 1.0 Healer's Kit, 1.0 Heward's Handy Haversack, 5.0 Holy Water (Flask), 1.0 Lance (Light) +2, 1.0 Outfit (Cold Weather), 1.0 Pearl of Wisdom +2, 1.0 Pipe and Weed, 1.0 Potion (Haste), 1.0 Rhino Hide +2 (Small), 1.0 Ring +1 (Protection), 1.0 Sword (Short), 1.0 Vest of Resistance +2, 1.0 Wand (Cure Light Wounds),

Spells: Paladin: /2 /2 /1

1-Bless, Bless Water, Bless Weapon, Create Water, Cure Light Wounds, Deafening Clang, Detect Poison, Detect Undead, Divine Favor, Divine Sacrifice, Endure Elements, Faith Healing, Magic Weapon, Protection from Evil, Read Magic, Resistance, Silverbeard, Strategic Charge, Virtue, Vision of Glory, Warning Shout

2-Aura of Glory, Blessed Aim, Curse of the Brute, Delay Poison, Hand of Divinity, Remove Paralysis, Resist Elements, Shield Other, Strength of Stone, Undetectable Alignment, Zeal

3-Cure Moderate Wounds, Discern Lies, Dispel Magic, Forceward, Greater Magic Weapon, Heal Mount, Know Greatest Enemy, Loyal Vassal, Magic Circle against Evil, Prayer, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Righteous Fury, Undead Bane Weapon

 

[Belares]

Sorry to disappoint your idea of "dumb"Paladin as I am starting a paladin with 10 INT. I can bet I wont be playing him dumb and yet I still have STR-16 and CHA-15. I think Dex. is good but like you said platemail for later makes dex. bonus void(except for Intiative and reflex saves) but then again your saves are pretty good later too! I will put a point of CHA at 4,8 and then at 12th for a total of 18CHA and that isnt too bad. At lower levels your STR will mean a lot more I think and your saves are better than most other characters except maybe monk. Anyone can play "dumb" characters (some better than others or is that smart characters that are just plain dumb players) but the fun in playing a Paladin is the idealogy of the strictness of the class and the beliefs of your fellow party members.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I have played Paladins in all 3 editions. I usually play in games that are heavy in combat (probably close to what is typical among gaming groups).

Paladins are good characters, fun characters if you happen to roll exceptionally well. But they are a sucker's play for averageish stats. That goes for all editions of D&D.

The basic problem is what is usually a melee grunt cannot afford to significantly strip down his combat stats.

In 1e/2e Paladins were hopelessly outclassed by a multiclassed Fighter/Cleric.

In 3e, the Paladin does not work very well for point buy. I recommend the DM make adjustments. If there are other muscular grunts in the party, I recommend concentrating on defensive abilties and stress staying power over offense. Measure your "valor" in terms of "discretion" and you can do well; being aggressively brave is suicidal.

Powergaming gripes aside, Paladins have enormous roleplaying potential. Having a Code can be a huge plus: even total strangers, dishonest double-dealers, and evil villains know that you can be counted on to keep your word.

 

[The Souljourner]

Artoomis: Thanks for all that info! Actually, it was you who inspired me to make a halfling paladin in the first place. There was a "powerful halfling characters" thread the other day, and you mentioned they're great 'cause they get to ride indoors with very few restrictions. The thought of a pint sized holy warrior charging valiantly into combat was just too cool to pass up.

I know exactly what you mean about mount progression and a mounted combat class. I like Cavalier, but you lose the mount progression, plus a single class non-human paladin can't take it until 12th level, which is a big pain in the butt. I may have to design my own PrC that's a more holy version of the Cavalier, slightly less powerful, with fewer required feats.

Ridley's Cohort: "Having a Code can be a huge plus: even total strangers, dishonest double-dealers, and evil villains know that you can be counted on to keep your word."

This is so true! In fact, I played a paladin in 2nd edition and the biggest benefit I found was the *player characters* trusted me more. Goes to show how much trust we put in each other normally.

Thanks guys, you've given me a lot to think about. I was kind of planning on going Paladin 6/Fighter 2 then 10 levels of cavalier, but a custom PrC is probably going to suit me better.

Artoomis, keep me informed of how it goes with Gibley, I'd like to hear how another Little Paladin is doing

-The Souljourner

 

[Jeremy]

Both the Windrider (Masters of the Wild, grants bonus feats to you and separate bonus feats to your mount!) and the Kishi Charger (Oriental Adventures, simply a better written Cavalier in my opinion) allow for mount improvement.

Er, or was it Battle Maiden? Erg. There are two prestige classes for mounted warriors in Oriental Adventures. One has deadly charge, the other has mount advancement I believe. <shrugs>

 

[Artoomis]

Here is a starting point for you to design your own prestige class. [edit: I think you can take this class at 8th level at the earliest. 10 ranks in Ride is the true limiting factor for earliest level to take it.]

Rider of Arvoreen

Oliver and Leus approached the cavern's opening carefully, unsure of what horrors may lie within. The bodies of several humanoids littered the outskirts of the cave in various states of decay, and the smell of death hung thick in the air. The light shed from Samryn, Oliver's holy sword revealed a deep tunnel leading into the bowels of the earth. The stench became nearly unbearable, and yet Oliver pressed onward, determined to rid the nearby village of the evil that had been feeding upon them.

Twists and turns lead Oliver deep into the ground, finally opening into a chamber. When the huge beast came within view Oliver muttered a prayer to Arvoreen and spurred Leus onward. The creature stood tall, setting aside the tattered remains of the last intruder, and wiped the blood from its maw, flashing a wicked grin. Even atop Leus, Oliver's proud and noble steed, the creature loomed a full 10 feet higher.

With a burst of speed that the creature could not anticipate Leus darted forward, Oliver thrust Samryn into the demon's ribcage, tearing through its flesh and organs. With its lifeblood spilling to the floor the demon charged after Oliver, thinking to rend through the back of the small rider. Leus, sensing the demon's approach reversed his momentum and swung out to the left, allowing Oliver to narrowly duck the demon's huge claws. Off balance and unable to slow itself the demon took a second hit, the blade slicing through its throat. With a howl of rage and pain the demon crashed to the floor, unable to continue the fight. Arvoreen's champion had won the day.

A Rider of Arvoreen is a cross between a paladin and a cavalier, a specialist in mounted combat. Where a cavalier is a mounted champion representing a noble house, the Rider of Arvoreen is a mounted champion of the church. This class is a natural transition for paladins looking to improve their mounted combat proficiency, but the sacrifice is great. Spells cease to increase by level, and turning abilities do not increase. This class may be adapted for any deity.

Hit Die: D10

Requirements:
Feats: Weapon Focus (sword or lance), Ride-by Attack
Abilities: Special Mount (as paladin)
Knowledge (Religion): 4 ranks
Ride: 10 ranks
Equipment: Masterwork heavy armor, masterwork sword

Class Skills

Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Profession (Int), Ride (Dex).

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Level BAB Fort Ref Will
1st +1 +2 +0 +2
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3
4th +4 +4 +1 +4
5th +5 +4 +1 +4
6th +6 +5 +2 +5
7th +7 +5 +2 +5
8th +8 +6 +2 +6
9th +9 +6 +3 +6
10th +10 +7 +3 +7

Abilities: With the exception of Divine Blessing, all the Rider's abilities apply only when mounted on his special mount, as they rely upon the bond between him and his mount.

Level 1 Abilities: Mounted weapon bonus (choose sword or lance - same as weapon focus) +1, Ride bonus +2, Tall in the saddle +1, Divine Blessing.

Level 2 Abilities: Lean into It, sword or lance (while mounted only), Divine Speed.

Level 3 Abilities: Mounted Weapon Bonus sword/lance +2, Tall in the saddle +2.

Level 4 Abilities: Divine Charge 1/day, Ride Bonus +4.

Level 5 Abilities: Mounted Weapon Bonus sword/lance +3, Tall in the saddle +3, Divine Perseverance.

Level 6 Abilities: Divine Charge 2/day, Full Mounted Attack.

Level 7 Abilities: Mounted Weapon Bonus sword/lance +4,Tall in the saddle +4.

Level 8 Abilities: Divine Charge 3/day, Ride bonus +6.

Level 9 Abilities: Mounted Weapon Bonus sword/lance +5.

Level 10 Abilities: Divine Wrath, Ride bonus +8.

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Rider of Arvoreen is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all types of armor, and all shields.

Divine Blessing: Paladins can freely multiclass with the Rider of Arvoreen, and his mount continues to improve based on the combined paladin/Rider of Arvoreen level. The paladin's smite evil and lay on hands ability also continue to improve with each level of this class.

Tall in the Saddle (ex): The Rider of Arvoreen gains a bonus to his ride skill check whenever he uses the mounted combat feat to negate a hit his mount takes in combat. (This bonus is intentionally unnamed.)

Divine Speed(ex): The Rider of Arvoreen can urge his mount to a bonus speed of +10 to its normal movement rate with a successful ride check vs. DC 20. This bonus lasts only one round, but there is no limit as to how many times it can be done. This is a combat maneuver only and cannot be used to speed overland travel.

Divine Charge(su): When mounted and using the charge action, you deal triple damage with a melee weapon, up to the number of times per day indicated. The ability supercedes the spirited charge feat (which allows you to deal double damage).

Lean into It (ex): The Rider of Arvoreen gains a +2 bonus to damage rolls with his sword or lance. This is similar to weapon specialization, and does not stack with weapon specialization.

Mounted Weapon Bonus(ex): The Rider of Arvoreen gains a bonus to his attack roll when using a sword or lance while mounted. The bonus is to either a sword or lance, depending upon which was chosen at first level, and this weapon must be the same one for which the Rider has Weapon Focus.

Ride Bonus(ex): The Rider of Arvoreen gains a competence bonus to ride checks.

Divine Perseverance(su): Once per day, if the Rider of Arvoreen is brought to -1 or lower hit points, she automatically is cured of 1d8+5 points of damage.

Full Mounted Attack(ex): At 6th level, the Rider of Arvoreen may take a Full Attack when his mount moves more than 5 feet rather than being limited to one attack. These attacks may be taken against multiple opponents during the move, but the Rider will draw Attacks of Opportunity as usual. This ability does not apply when charging.

Divine Wrath(su): The Rider of Arvoreen channels a portion of his patron's power into wrath, giving him a +3 sacred bonus on attack rolls, damage, and saving throws for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma bonus. During this time, the Rider of Arvoreen also has damage reduction 5/-. This ability can be used once per day and it invoked as a free action.

This class must choose either sword or lance to specialize, and must, of course, have weapon focus in the weapon chosen. This choice affects all special abilities - they are EITHER for sword or lance, not for both.

[edited: a number of tune-ups]

edit: see http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10318 for a House Rules discussion of the Rider of Arvoreen

 

[The Souljourner]

Thanks for the info, Jeremy.

Looks like battle maiden gets a very similar mount progression to paladins, but with a ride bonus that at 1st is +2, at 3rd is +2 and applies to initiative while mounted, at 5th is +4 and applies to AC while mounted, at 7th is +4 and applies to attacks while mounted, and at 9th is +6. That's +6 to ride checks, initiative, AC and attacks while mounted. Wow.

The Kishi Charger is almost exactly like the Cavalier except with poor will save to the Cavalier's good, a couple minor abilities, and without the mounted weapon bonuses. Of course, you also don't need the two weapon focus feats to get the class, nor the knowledge: nobility.

Interesting.

I'm working on a paladin specific mounted PrC.. I'll use these as guidelines. Look for it tonight in the House Rules forum (I'll post a link here when it goes up). I'd really appreciate everyone's opinions, ideas etc.

-The Souljourner

[edit] Man, I take too long to type this stuff out. Obviously Artoomis has already spent some time on this. I'll put in some comments once I've read his PrC.