Why are these druid feats EPIC?

[DSC-EricPrice]

From the SRD

VERMIN WILD SHAPE [WILD][EPIC]
Prerequisites: Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, wild shape 6/day.
Benefit: The character can use his or her normal wild shape ability to take the form of a vermin. The size limitation is the same as the character’s limitation on animal size.


This seems ridiculous compared to some of the other feats available to Epic Characters (such as Automatic Quicken Spell)

We're considering rewriting this for an upcoming campaign and I just wanted to see if anyone could think of a legitimate reason for it to be EPIC. I might point out that prior to 3.5 the BEAST WILD SHAPE was a prereq and also an Epic Feat.

 

[DSC-EricPrice]

Lets add this one to the discussion too...

Wildshape, Plant (Wild)
Prerequisites: Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, wild shape 4/day.
Benefit: The character can use his or her normal wild shape ability to take the form of a plant. The size limitation is the same as the character’s limitation on animal size.

 

[mikebr99]

Lets add this one to the discussion too...

Wildshape, Plant (Wild)
Prerequisites: Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, wild shape 4/day.
Benefit: The character can use his or her normal wild shape ability to take the form of a plant. The size limitation is the same as the character’s limitation on animal size.

12th level 3.5 Druids can do this one automatically... no feat, EPIC or otherwise required.


Mike

 

[mikebr99]

From the SRD

VERMIN WILD SHAPE [WILD][EPIC]
Prerequisites: Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, wild shape 6/day.
Benefit: The character can use his or her normal wild shape ability to take the form of a vermin. The size limitation is the same as the character’s limitation on animal size.


This seems ridiculous compared to some of the other feats available to Epic Characters (such as Automatic Quicken Spell)

We're considering rewriting this for an upcoming campaign and I just wanted to see if anyone could think of a legitimate reason for it to be EPIC. I might point out that prior to 3.5 the BEAST WILD SHAPE was a prereq and also an Epic Feat.

I guess because Vermin get Darkvision as a trait... and the powers at WoTC don't want you to have that via polymorph, or similar... No idea really, but if a Druid IMC wanted vermin, he could have it instead of Animals... YMMV


Mike

 

[ruleslawyer]

Well, keep in mind that the Vermin and Plant Wildshape feats are 3.0 carryovers (the Epic section just sorta got stuck into the SRD without really being worked over for 3.5 compliance). The major reasons why Vermin Wildshape used to be epic (and, IMHO, why Plant Wildshape should still be epic) are the following:

Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

That's worth an epic feat right there. With 3.5, this has been reorganized into the Mindless trait, which a wildshaped druid would not get. Plants, OTOH, still get the immunity to mind-affecting effects, PLUS:

—Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.

—Not subject to critical hits.

And now it's a nonepic class ability. No wonder people complain that druids are overpowered.

 

[xenoflare]

vermin

well, vermin are mindless (Ex ability), and therefore immune to all mind-affecting effects. Due to wild shape's retention of special abilities of the new form, and the indefinite wild shape durations of druids, you can be effectively "Mind-Blanked" for as long as you want. slap in Natural Spell, and you're quite okay. I mean, how may Druids are mind blanked?

Since you can't wild shape into anything with more Hit Dice than your own and bearing in mind the Size restrictions to Huge, at epic levels, you can still transform into a maximum-advanced Huge Monstrous Scorpion (19 Hit Dice). It's not a very good form, true, but you get the poison (that DC is based on your Hit Dice and Constiution modifier), natural armour, a decent strength score etc - quite an ok fighting/ casting form i guess, that can be boosted with spells etc.

Just my 2 power points on the issue..

Yours,
shao

 

[xenoflare]

Well, keep in mind that the Vermin and Plant Wildshape feats are 3.0 carryovers (the Epic section just sorta got stuck into the SRD without really being worked over for 3.5 compliance). The major reasons why Vermin Wildshape used to be epic (and, IMHO, why Plant Wildshape should still be epic) are the following:
That's worth an epic feat right there. With 3.5, this has been reorganized into the Mindless trait, which a wildshaped druid would not get. Plants, OTOH, still get the immunity to mind-affecting effects, PLUS:


And now it's a nonepic class ability. No wonder people complain that druids are overpowered.

Eek! i've been beaten to the Mindless chase by you, ruleslawyer!

 

[mikebr99]

According to RotG...

polymorphing into a plant does give you... Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). (Natural ability.)

polymorphing into a vermin doesn't give you... Mindless: No Intelligence score and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). (You usually keep your Intelligence score when changing forms; the baleful polymorph spell can be an exception.)

Or... -- Darkvision out to 60 feet. (A natural ability.)
​

Mike

 

[DSC-EricPrice]

Ok, wandering away from strict rules interpretation for a minute...

1. Vermin are immune to mind influencing spells because they have no intellect (Int - )

2. Druids who wild shape into any form retain their own mind

3. Druids therefore have no basis for expecting to be immune to mind influencing spells, regardless of their shape.

IF you accept this argument as valid, is wild shaping into a vermin more reasonable as a low to mid level feat/ability as opposed to an Epic one?

 

[Mort_Q]

12th level 3.5 Druids can do this one automatically... no feat, EPIC or otherwise required.


Mike

At 12th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a plant creature with the same size restrictions as for animal forms. (A druid can’t use this ability to take the form of a plant that isn’t a creature.)

The EPIC feat eliminates the restrictions bolded it seems.